Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Savage Henry]

The phrase ex-pat rips my knitting, these people are immigrants, but because they are white and mostly English they don’t want to label them as such.

There’s a huge difference between ex-pat and immigrant. One implies a compete unwillingness to integrate, and the other implies total emersion. British ex-pats (English has nothing to do with it) are nowhere near as involved in local communities for one thing. I’ve got no problem with the different labels.

On a wider point, I’d say a second referendum is far more likely than No Deal Brexit at this point. A general election is perhaps more likely, but they amount to the same thing.

[Granny Danger]

6 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

You always use that point gd but it only shuts down debate, and creates an echo chamber on this forum. Fair enough of that's what you want but it's not helpful in the slightest.

We should all be challenging our views regularly, as long as the points are being made in a reasonably coherent manner (which that last one was).

Dismissing leave voters as racist achieves nothing.

I can distinguish between posters who are genuine and who I might disagree with and posters who are trolls.  

Do you know what a troll is?

 

[John Lambies Doos]

I live in High Wycombe which has a high % of immigrants and, yes, it does work.  The only folk who give you bother are the white underclass.  This, especially with our Tory MP, isn't a popular view but is true.
Another factor is education.  South Bucks still has the 11+ and selective state grammars.  The consequence?  A group of brainy 12 year olds who are as mixed as it is possible to be and whose school cricket team is pretty decent.  You also have mosques, down here, educating their 9 and 10 yos to go through the 11+.  This is a good thing.
So...access to education is the key here. Well educated weans has got to be our future irrespective of their country of origin.

Good post.

[Paco]

Dismissing leave voters as racist achieves nothing.

No question that’s true. I’d love a second referendum and I’d be delighted if Remain won, but I’m not really sure it’d solve much in the medium to long term. I suspect it would simply motivate the Conservative Party to elect a Eurosceptic leader and we’d go through yet another referendum the next chance they got.

But then let’s try ‘listen’ to the Leave voters. I’m still, even after all this time, not really sure what they want - there’s no doubt the most common reason for leaving seems to immigration. But then you have several Leave voting sectors like farming desperate for ‘special permission’ on immigration, and the Leave party of choice are already making up the shortfall of EU migrants with those from India, Pakistan, Syria and Nigeria - nothing is stopping the Government saying no to that, and the very same Leave voters will still vote for them the next chance they get. What’s the solution here?

Is it ‘red tape’ and trade barriers? Remember the Brexit-central town of Grimsby demanding ‘free port’ status to easily trade with the EU? Turns out the red tape will be a lot worse outside the tent. Whodda thunk it.

CFP/CAP? There’s no question the average voter has no knowledge on these - I don’t know much and I’m very engaged in politics. I just don’t buy that Les from Blackburn voted on behalf of Peterhead fishermen.

So what are we left with here? What are the other actual reasons that we can try to address?

I beat the drum on here for months saying that unless the Democrats stopped scapegoating Trump voters (deplorable, anyone?) and listened to their legitimate concerns - dying industries, lack of jobs, declining lifestyles for almost all but the coasts, constant reiteration that things had never been better when the opposite was true for large parts of the country - he’d win the election. Admittedly after the ‘pussy’ tape even I thought it impossible, but I could see why people were moving to him. And yes, some were doing it for racist reasons, just like Brexit. We shouldn’t hide from that either.

But what exactly should we be listening to here? What are the lessons to take away? What is leaving the EU going to achieve for the disengaged and the downtrodden, that us ‘experts’ and ‘elites’ aren’t seeing?

[pandarilla]

Excellent post.

I find it surprising that not many people on the remain side of the debate have questioned the structures of the EU as a positive force in our life.

The Greece situation pretty much made my mind up about the organisation. The bullying tactics used was hard to just accept.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Excellent post.

I find it surprising that not many people on the remain side of the debate have questioned the structures of the EU as a positive force in our life.

The Greece situation pretty much made my mind up about the organisation. The bullying tactics used was hard to just accept.

Yes, but the key consideration is we were a party to it and did nothing to force change despite being able to do so, the UK has held considerable influence in the EU at many levels and stages of its progress. It had ample opportunity to help shift direction and indeed a veto to block it. Instead the crayon munchers shout ‘Eubaaad’ and fail to realise that we are every bit as bad.
Complain about CFP- Nigel Farage the self styled champion of the fisherman was on the CFP board and didnt attend meetings, did he expect them to think about ‘what would Nigel do’ and take those steps in his absence?

Its a perfect illustration of how people complain about something within the EU but have done nothing to force change. We have a veto, we have power on committees, we have an interest as the 5th largest economy in the world, we have a significant number of MEP’s and have failed to undertake any meaningful change.

[HTG]

3 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Excellent post.

I find it surprising that not many people on the remain side of the debate have questioned the structures of the EU as a positive force in our life.

The Greece situation pretty much made my mind up about the organisation. The bullying tactics used was hard to just accept.

The EU isn't and never has been a panacea to cure all ills. But it is blindingly obvious that, positioned where the UK is, it is better being in than out. 

The furore over being in the CU and the rules that go along with that mean the Norway option isn't going to be available. 

Scotland elected the SNP on a manifesto which included the option of a second referendum in the event of significant change - and cited the current situation as an example. 

Scotland doesn't want to come out of the EU. Even without those who are EU nationals Scotland voted in by a huge majority. 

Scotland should absolutely determine whether it wants to continue to be steered by England. 

The sooner the better. 

[ayrmad]

7 hours ago, weegienative said:

1) no, you can't just keep voting until you get your own way, that's not how democracy works. If it wasnt a point of principle 'd actually quite welcome another indyref as it would be even more conclusive than the last time.

2) wouldn't it be more economically sensible to incentivise parenthood rather than import a solution? You know, rather than impose a higher tax rate than the rest of the UK and actively leaving workers more out of pocket? Seems like the SNP have this problem in hand. 

Anybody that cares about Scotland would not continue to vote for the clusterfuck that is the SNP.

 

No, we voted NO in 2014 and are living by that vote, if at some point in the future, we decide to have another indyref, that'll be fine, that's democracy in action.

Anybody that cares about Scotland would only vote SNP/Greens, the other parties couldn't give a flying f**k about Scotland or it's people.

[weegienative]

55 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

London is the most ethnically diverse city in the UK. And in Europe, and possibly even worldwide.

Yet people in London as a whole voted overwhelmingly to remain.

Why is that ? Well, I would suggest that one of the reasons is that London is SO ethnically diverse that people there don't even notice it anymore....in fact, many love London because of its diversity, and wouldn't have it any other way.

More deprived and poorer areas of the country want someone to blame for their lack of education and/or opportunities. And handily, ethnic diversity gives them that. These people think that Brexit will solve their economic problems, when in fact their problems are far closer to home and won't disappear simply because we leave the EU.

It's not ethnic diversity that drives Brexit. It's lack of education and opportunity, combined with ignorance and fear stoked by the right-wing.

 

 

Yes London with its murder rate and acid attacks driven by warring rival ethnic gangs seems to be quite the utopia.

London is in a financial bubble but you are being very selective in the way you present your argument. EU funding and self interest drove a lot the voting in London. 

[Granny Danger]

We are living in a very polarised society and NOTHING is going to change that in the short term.  That does not mean we should be pandering to the wishes of the Brexiteers.

Not all Brexiteers are racist but opinion polls both prior and subsequent to the vote show(ed) a misguided view of the role of EU immigrants.

We can try to educate people but we cannot let people’s prejudices wreck the economy.  

[pandarilla]

I voted remain. But I held my nose whilst doing so.

As a watcher of events I'd be very interested to see what happened in the event of a no deal. I fully understand that this could impact on people's livelihoods, and that's not good.

Right, need to work.

[weegienative]

3 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

No, we voted NO in 2014 and are living by that vote, if at some point in the future, we decide to have another indyref, that'll be fine, that's democracy in action.

Anybody that cares about Scotland would only vote SNP/Greens, the other parties couldn't give a flying f**k about Scotland or it's people.

You think the SNP are good for Scotland? Based on what? Not their performance since being in power for over a decade. What else gives you that impression? 

[ayrmad]

2 minutes ago, weegienative said:

You think the SNP are good for Scotland? Based on what? Not their performance since being in power for over a decade. What else gives you that impression? 

Based on the performance of the other parties running the other parts of the UK, we're going out of the UK because the shite down south have run large swathes of the country into the ground, you'll blame immigrants not integrating in those areas, I blame the 3 main parties for not giving a flying f**k about those areas while spunking as much as possible on London.

[weegienative]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

That’ll be why Glasgow voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU? Also largely vote in the SNP a pro-immigration party? I get that you’re trying to come across as semi-intelligent, it’s just that the only one you’re convincing is you.

Am I not saying it right?  How should I say it better so you understand?

Scotland with the exception of one area of Glasgow.... ONE area, not the entirety of Glasgow.

Also in Glasgow, Brexit was a bit of a proxy vote for indyref. It was one of only 4 Scottish council areas to vote yes in indyref. Nothing says a city of Scottish nationalists like Union and RoI flags. It's almost as though certain groups were hijacking the vote(s) to pursue other agendas.

[weegienative]

11 minutes ago, ayrmad said:

Based on the performance of the other parties running the other parts of the UK, we're going out of the UK because the shite down south have run large swathes of the country into the ground, you'll blame immigrants not integrating in those areas, I blame the 3 main parties for not giving a flying f**k about those areas while spunking as much as possible on London.

No based on the performance of the SNP. Please explain why anyone should be in favour of giving them more powers when they've fucked up everything they've touched to date.

[Granny Danger]

What can May achieve by her delay?  The DUP and others saying only changes to the legal document affecting the backstop is acceptable; the EU saying that will not be changed.  It’s simply more of May refusing to accept reality.

I wonder if it will spark more letters to the Chair of the 1922 committee?

 

[Scary Bear]

As we don’t seem to be getting the deal either side wants, we should either try to call it off or if we’re feeling like a challenge just go for the no deal Brexit. Either way, i’m sick of Brexit and sick of seeing Theresa May. f**k the pair of them. Get rid of her and get someone in who can make better decisions.

It’s a worry that Theresa May is the PM. When she was at the Home Office doing a bloody terrible job, who thought ‘she’d be a good future PM’?

I think it’s a bad idea to be part of an organisation which is this difficult to leave. However, I could say the same about Scotland in the United Kingdom.

[ayrmad]

Just now, weegienative said:

No based on the performance of the SNP. Please explain why anyone should be in favour of giving them more powers when they've fucked up everything they've touched to date.

If the SNP have fucked up everything they've touched then how do you judge the Torys, Labour and Lib Dems elsewhere in the UK.

[Fullerene]

2 minutes ago, Scary Bear said:

As we don’t seem to be getting the deal either side wants, we should either try to call it off or if we’re feeling like a challenge just go for the no deal Brexit. Either way, i’m sick of Brexit and sick of seeing Theresa May. f**k the pair of them. Get rid of her and get someone in who can make better decisions.

It’s a worry that Theresa May is the PM. When she was at the Home Office doing a bloody terrible job, who thought ‘she’d be a good future PM’?

I think it’s a bad idea to be part of an organisation which is this difficult to leave. However, I could say the same about Scotland in the United Kingdom.

The EU is not making it difficult to leave.

It is simply saying we can't have all the privileges of membership without being a member.

[Scary Bear]

Just now, Fullerene said:

The EU is not making it difficult to leave.

It is simply saying we can't have all the privileges of membership without being a member.

I suspect they are making it difficult to leave. Otherwise we wouldn’t be talking about stockpiles of material goods.