welshbairn Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: Where? Can't find anything. May wants the transition to end before the fixed term GE in summer 2022, EU talking December 2022. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 On 17/11/2018 at 12:15, Granny Danger said: We organise a further referendum and ask the EU to extend article 50. They will bend over backwards to do so. 4 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Yes it’s my position. The idea that if Parliament rejects May’s plan that she’s just going to do nothing is the epitome of Project Fear. If Parliament decides a course of action which is ignored then you will have a constitutional crisis. What is laughable (in a very dark way) is that no one is saying “this is a really good deal”; no one is even saying “this is a fairly good deal”. Backing a deal that everyone knows is shit because people are being conned into believing nothing better is achievable is shocking and sad. If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 6 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: Today's guardian. Also on today's RTE articlehttps://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1119/1011805-brexit-transition-barnier/ Hmmm. Should have noticed The Guardian as I get it e-mailed every day... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 52 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Like I say project fear. An absolutely atrocious deal which puts us in a far worse position than we are at present whilst giving more control to the EU. The ONLY reason to back it is fear of a No Deal Brexit which Parliament simply won’t vote for. The UK have always had the weaker negotiating hand in this process. The red lines were set very firmly on certain European issues and they will not do anything to harm the integrity of their single market. It's a stretch to call this a negotiation but it's more or less all that we were ever going to come up with and I've yet to see a coherent response where somebody has put out a viable proposal for an alternative Brexit deal that doesn't jepordise a huge number of jobs or cause bigger issues on the Irish border. The main response I've seen is along the lines of the Canada ++ type scenario (where relative to our current membership, the access to the market is tiny and nowhere near the same level of integration; frictionless trade is gone and assembly lines won't stay as they just can't be profitable; also more issues in Ireland). Even then, it's very hard to find what people who are endorsing that idea actually wanted in the withdrawl bill. It's a shite state of affairs but the country were stupid enough to vote leave and if that's what they really want, this is the only way it can be done. Just because an idea is expressed negatively doesn't mean that it's not the least-bad option unfortunately. If you are an MP going into that chamber in a few weeks, you are voting for a 'yes/no' on this arrangement with the knowledge of a 'no' vote resulting in a cliff edge. The idea of this being rejected because parliament won't vote for a 'no deal' is contradictory in itself as this is it - there's nothing else on the table to vote on and a clock ticking. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here?Article 50 can really only be extended for a month due to EU elections in May. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Just now, John Lambies Doos said: 3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? Article 50 can really only be extended for a month due to EU elections in May. There's no rule about that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 There's no rule about that. Correct, but the timing is not good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? 3 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 7 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? Article 50 can really only be extended for a month due to EU elections in May. 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There's no rule about that. Let's assume wb is right - who proposes Article 50 extension? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Let's assume wb is right - who proposes Article 50 extension?Both parties, but 27EU members must all agree. Not sure they will, it will lead to a nationalistic increase at the EU elections... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? 1 minute ago, harry94 said: The UK have always had the weaker negotiating hand in this process. The red lines were set very firmly on certain European issues and they will not do anything to harm the integrity of their single market. It's a stretch to call this a negotiation but it's more or less all that we were ever going to come up with and I've yet to see a coherent response where somebody has put out a viable proposal for an alternative Brexit deal that doesn't jepordise a huge number of jobs or cause bigger issues on the Irish border. The main response I've seen is along the lines of the Canada ++ type scenario (where relative to our current membership, the access to the market is tiny and nowhere near the same level of integration; frictionless trade is gone and assembly lines won't stay as they just can't be profitable; also more issues in Ireland). Even then, it's very hard to find what people who are endorsing that idea actually wanted in the withdrawl bill. It's a shite state of affairs but the country were stupid enough to vote leave and if that's what they really want, this is the only way it can be done. Just because an idea is expressed negatively doesn't mean that it's not the least-bad option unfortunately. If you are an MP going into that chamber in a few weeks, you are voting for a 'yes/no' on this arrangement with the knowledge of a 'no' vote resulting in a cliff edge. The idea of this being rejected because parliament won't vote for a 'no deal' is contradictory in itself as this is it - there's nothing else on the table to vote on and a clock ticking. The only politicians who will be suckered into this are those who are looking to justify it to the electorate in their constituencies when the eventual implication of what they’ve signed up to becomes clear. ”I didn’t want to accept this but I was told the alternative was worse!” Any of them with a modicum of sense and guts will realise that if there’s the numbers to defeat May (and there undoubtedly is) then there’s the numbers to seek a suspension to Article 50. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 4 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: Let's assume wb is right - who proposes Article 50 extension? Both parties, but 27EU members must all agree. Not sure they will, it will lead to a nationalistic increase at the EU elections... Only if UKIP has a miraculous Lazarus moment. And they might come up with a bodge on the UK taking part, extending the serving UK MEP's terms until the end of the extension or something. Edited November 19, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 10 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: If Parliament rejects the deal, May is going to have to resign, surely? Who is then going to propose a further referendum and extending Article 50? A private member? Can't see the government doing it. Or Labour proposing it. Would a general election solve anything? What's the time scale here? Article 50 can really only be extended for a month due to EU elections in May. 6 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There's no rule about that. 4 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: 6 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There's no rule about that. Correct, but the timing is not good. JLD makes a statement, it is contradicted, then he says the person contradicting him is correct! All within 3 minutes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Only if UKIP has a miraculous Lazarus moment.I'm talking about the other countries 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 I’m sure there’s still a court case before the ECJ to determine if the U.K. can unilaterally withdraw Article 50. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 JLD makes a statement, it is contradicted, then he says the person contradicting him is correct! All within 3 minutes. I said really only implying that it's very unlikely given circumstances... You know that GD.GD is the most vocal against brexit, yet voted for it. Now there's a contradiction!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I’m sure there’s still a court case before the ECJ to determine if the U.K. can unilaterally withdraw Article 50. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong. Judicious caveat, there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: I said really only implying that it's very unlikely given circumstances... You know that GD. GD is the most vocal against brexit, yet voted for it. Now there's a contradiction!! So you think someone should not change their mind? Interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I’m sure there’s still a court case before the ECJ to determine if the U.K. can unilaterally withdraw Article 50. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong. Due to be heard Nov 27th but UK Gov is appealing against it going to court. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zidane's child Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I’m sure there’s still a court case before the ECJ to determine if the U.K. can unilaterally withdraw Article 50. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong. Never knew something like that would be taken to court! I thought this decision would be at the discretion of the EU. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: Judicious caveat, there. No need really. 1 minute ago, welshbairn said: Due to be heard Nov 27th but UK Gov is appealing against it going to court. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/21/triggering-article-50-reversed-european-court-justice-brexit-bad-dream 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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