vikingTON Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, FlyerTon said: Looks like the dust has settled a bit in terms of Theresa May staying as PM. Out of Europe and Scotland ultimately ruled by the Westminster Tories for the foreseeable future it seems. That's what No-voters got strapped in for when they utterly shat the bed in 2014. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, RedRob72 said: A second vote could work, positioned as a definitive choice now the circumstances and consequences appear to be much clearer, but can the whole process be completed before the end of March? Do we put the brakes on to accommodate a new timescale will all the extended chaos and uncertainty that will ensue, plus the distinct possibility of ANOTHER general election? If the Leave vote wins again, where then? If the result is overturned, will the Government (whoever is in power) be compelled to run a rubber match? Project Fear really has got a grip on some people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 The mechanism is perfectly straightforward and has been set out just this morning by someone who knows what he speaks of: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/17/europe-britain-brexit-article-50-second-referendum The idea that the March deadline cannot be moved is preposterous - if the UK opts to hold another vote then the EU will obviously agree to extend it. Elections to the European Parliament are not a huge obstacle: they could be held in rEU in May as scheduled with a UK ballot taking place the following year or later. It can be done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawWatchin Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, virginton said: The mechanism is perfectly straightforward and has been set out just this morning by someone who knows what he speaks of: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/17/europe-britain-brexit-article-50-second-referendum The idea that the March deadline cannot be moved is preposterous - if the UK opts to hold another vote then the EU will obviously agree to extend it. Elections to the European Parliament are not a huge obstacle: they could be held in rEU in May as scheduled with a UK ballot taking place the following year or later. It can be done. It can be, but it won't be. If the powers that be didn't want Brexit to happen, then there would never have been a referendum on it in the first place. As soon as they called the referendum, Brexit was always going to be the outcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) FWIW I think the 'People's Vote' is a stupid movement in principle (a different plebiscite to shape the outcome of a previous one) and in the practicalities of setting up the question and campaigns. The much clearer argument should be that the negotiations have now been made, a proposal is on the table and that Parliament can determine the final decision. If the current deal fails in the Commons then this completely shambolic government must finally be put out of its misery, Then you hold a snap GE in which the voters provide a mandate for Parliament to settle the issue once and for all. Edited November 17, 2018 by vikingTON 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, virginton said: The mechanism is perfectly straightforward and has been set out just this morning by someone who knows what he speaks of: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/17/europe-britain-brexit-article-50-second-referendum The idea that the March deadline cannot be moved is preposterous - if the UK opts to hold another vote then the EU will obviously agree to extend it. Elections to the European Parliament are not a huge obstacle: they could be held in rEU in May as scheduled with a UK ballot taking place the following year or later. It can be done. It's also possible mainstream Europe would welcome UK relatively moderate parties sending MEPs with the collapse of UKIP, to balance the rise of the Nationalist right. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/european-parliament-election-new-political-lines-by-zaki-laidi-2018-11 Edited November 17, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: It's also possible mainstream Europe would welcome UK relatively moderate parties sending MEPs with the collapse of UKIP, to balance the rise of the populist right. https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/european-parliament-election-new-political-lines-by-zaki-laidi-2018-11 UKIP would be certs to win any EU election in the next couple of years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Detournement said: UKIP would be certs to win any EU election in the next couple of years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Detournement said: UKIP would be certs to win any EU election in the next couple of years. They tried to organise a pro Brexit demonstration at Westminster yesterday, 4 people turned up. I don't think they have the party structure anymore to run an UK wide campaign. Edited November 17, 2018 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: If there is any attempt to keep us in the EU a massive stab in the back narrative is going to take hold. What killed UKIP was both main parties supporting Brexit in 2017. If you don't think that a good chunk of the 17m Leave voters would vote UKIP then you'll have to explain why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, welshbairn said: They tried to organise a pro Brexit demonstration at Westminster yesterday, 4 people turned up. I don't think they have the party structure anymore to run an UK wide campaign. They will be all over TV and the papers though. They never had any grassroots to speak of in the first place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Detournement said: If there is any attempt to keep us in the EU a massive stab in the back narrative is going to take hold. What killed UKIP was both main parties supporting Brexit in 2017. If you don't think that a good chunk of the 17m Leave voters would vote UKIP then you'll have to explain why? They're a tiny party with no grassroots to speak of. Their only policy has been adopted by bigger parties. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawWatchin Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: If you don't think that a good chunk of the 17m Leave voters would vote UKIP then you'll have to explain why? Because not a large chunk of the 17m leave voters are a seething angry mess who want to see a hard-brexit that would subsequently damage their business interests or their jobs. UKIP pander to a minority element in British politics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Tibbermoresaint said: They're a tiny party with no grassroots to speak of. Their only policy has been adopted by bigger parties. That's what I said. However they were the biggest party at the last EU elections despite not having a grassroots and if we actually have another EU parliament election it means that the two main parties will be back in the Remain camp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 30 minutes ago, Detournement said: Only the government can negotiate with the EU and only the government can set a referendum question. Or their delegates. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, BawWatchin said: Because not a large chunk of the 17m leave voters are a seething angry mess who want to see a hard-brexit that would subsequently damage their business interests or their jobs. UKIP pander to a minority element in British politics. They won the last EU election! In 2014 before non stop Brexit coverage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawWatchin Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Detournement said: They won the last EU election! In 2014 before non stop Brexit coverage. That's because there was no soft-brexit option at the time. The gap has now been filled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, Sergeant Wilson said: Or their delegates. Ministers instruct civil servants on every aspect of governing. As it stands there is no clear path to a second referendum unless May performs a huge 180 and abandons the manifesto she was elected on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Detournement said: That's what I said. However they were the biggest party at the last EU elections despite not having a grassroots and if we actually have another EU parliament election it means that the two main parties will be back in the Remain camp. Being the biggest party at the EU elections means diddly squat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Just now, BawWatchin said: That's because there was no soft-brexit option at the time. The gap has now been filled. If we are in the EU election there's no soft Brexit option either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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