Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Detournement]

11 minutes ago, Buddist Monk said:

That isn't proof buddy, and it's absolutely no evidence that it was a malicious act by the EU in some way to intentionally harm the citizens of a member country.

 

 

Completely bankrupt a nations health service....... Act surprised when mortality rates go up, mental health services fail, drug addiction rockets and suicide rates mulitply. Aye ok.

The EU knew the cost of austerity as much as the Tories did. Austerity is a policy designed to punish the working class for existing.

 

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Writing down the debt and giving them fiscal support.

Instead they enforced austerity crippling the economy and driving 8% of the population (mainly the young and graduates) to leave the country. They then sold off just about every state asset they could and raised taxes and cut spending. The result is an economy that is 1/3rd smaller than in 2010 and debt which has went up and now sits at 170% of GDP. The debt is now owed to the ECB and the IMF ie the French and German banks got away scot free.

Anyone with a brain can see that the debt is never going to be paid. It will eventually have to be written off, which is what should have been done from the start with the avoidance of huge numbers of deaths and untold misery.

How come Spain, Portugal and Ireland survived and recovered without their debts being written off? Were the EU nicer to them?

[Buddist Monk]

 

7 minutes ago, Detournement said:

ie the French and German banks got away scot free.

Please stop it, that's just lies. Banks from all over the world lost a lot of money when the Greek economy went bust, including German and French ones. What annoys a lot of people is that the German lobby within the EU is very strong and so they tended to be the voices heard. The idea they got off "scot free" has no basis in fact.

Here is Barclay's report of International exposure...

I don't know where you are getting your information from but it's seems like it's either based on a subjective agenda or an ill informed source.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[Buddist Monk]

9 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Austerity is a policy designed to punish the working class for existing.

Now as a socialist I sort of agree with that except for the paranoid "for existing" claim. Austerity never works, unless by working you mean making the rich richer.

I think you need to devolve you clear personal dislike for the institution with the actual facts of the situation. It's just too easy, and wrong, to suggest that the ECB/EU in some way intentionally killed the citizens of Greece. What would have happened if the whole Eurozone collapsed? Far far more upheaval and pain, and would have set all of Europe (and most of the world) back to the days of 2008. As I said it was a Hobson's Choice. Greece could have left the Eurozone and gone to the Drachma but despite all the problems there was still a majority of it's citizens that supported being part of the union. Not only that, dropping to the Drachma would have caused an utter cluster f**k for Greece and a recession that would not have been cleared for at least another decade.

 

I think it should also be noted that the Greek government of the time played politics, failing to regulate their domestic systems until it was too late and lying to their populace by claiming "it's not our fault, guv'nor, it's those pesky Germans".

Edited September 11, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[Detournement]

So how much did the private banks lose on this?

This graph shows that the vast majority of Greek debt is now owed to the IMF and EU institutions. https://www.ft.com/content/b3124770-4b37-3823-8c6a-b7a1b59c028e

Debt which was owed to private banks end up being held by public institutions owned by tax payers. The risk was transferred from the private sector to the public.

[Crùbag]

1 hour ago, Detournement said:

And the EU has a track record of fucking over it's citizens in favour of bankers and corporations.

Has it really? Of course, London would do no such thing...

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

So how much did the private banks lose on this?

This graph shows that the vast majority of Greek debt is now owed to the IMF and EU institutions. https://www.ft.com/content/b3124770-4b37-3823-8c6a-b7a1b59c028e

Debt which was owed to private banks end up being held by public institutions owned by tax payers. The risk was transferred from the private sector to the public.

Sounds very much like the EU and others bailing Greece out of bankruptcy. The b*****ds.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Crùbag said:

Has it really? Of course, London would do no such thing...

I agree. However you can vote the Tories or even London out. Changing EU policy is close to impossible.

There was democratic outlet for the Greek people. The institutions making the decisions are completely undemocratic, their referendum result was ignored and the one party that offered them some hope stabbed them in the back.

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Sounds very much like the EU and others bailing Greece out of bankruptcy. The b*****ds.

Yet Greece has more debt now than they did at the beginning of this. Plus all their assets sold off. Plus a pauperized population.

So who got bailed out?

[Buddist Monk]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

This graph shows that the vast majority of Greek debt is now owed to the IMF and EU institutions. https://www.ft.com/content/b3124770-4b37-3823-8c6a-b7a1b59c028e

You will forgive me as I don't bother with online paywalls.

However I think you are misunderstanding how this works. The debts are toxic, this leaves banks from all over the EU (not just France and Germany) with their books filled with numerous different loans that won't be paid back and in turn affect their ability to be profitable (and as much as I hate the idea we bend over to help the banks be profitable, again it's sadly the way the global economy works) so these are then transferred to a holding company, in this case it will be the ECB or the IMF. These organisations do not suffer the same fallout from holding such debts. It's not suspicious or sinister that these organisations hold this debt, if anything it benefits everyone, including the Greeks. I mean they could just write off all the debt, that is fair, the problem is that would absolutely hammer the Eurozone and in turn hammer the Greek economy more.

The idea that the IMF or ECB hold these debts now is not in any way evidence that the have had some sort of malicious whip hand from the start.

[Crùbag]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Yet Greece has more debt now than they did at the beginning of this. Plus all their assets sold off. Plus a pauperized population.

So who got bailed out?

What's the UK debt by the way? And, haven't our assets been sold off to...er international corporations?

[Detournement]

Just now, Buddist Monk said:

my more.

The idea that the IMF or ECB hold these debts now is not in any way evidence that the have had some sort of malicious whip hand from the start.

The FT article is free.

The IMF and ECB aren't holding companies. They are supranational bodies funded by taxation. When the debts are eventually written off it will have been paid by German and French taxpayers which is what should have happened from the start to bail out French and German banks.

(Unsurpisingly the American funded IMF is first in line to get it's money back)

[Buddist Monk]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

The FT article is free.

The IMF and ECB aren't holding companies. They are supranational bodies funded by taxation. When the debts are eventually written off it will have been paid by German and French taxpayers which is what should have happened from the start to bail out French and German banks.

(Unsurpisingly the American funded IMF is first in line to get it's money back)

I followed the link and it showed me a paywall.

I still contend that while you have some validity to your comments, it's blinded by some pretty outlandish claims.

[Detournement]

3 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

What's the UK debt by the way? And, haven't our assets been sold off to...er international corporations?

UK debt is £1.78 trillion which is 85% of GDP. But that's irrelevant as the government can never run out of pounds. Totally different from the debtor Eurozone countries.

Our assets were sold off. Largely to international corporations but also as part of the first great neoliberal bribe by Thatcher to buy Tory votes. But not on the scale of the sell offs in Greece.

 

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, Buddist Monk said:

I followed the link and it showed me a paywall.

I still contend that while you have some validity to your comments, it's blinded by some pretty outlandish claims.

Claiming that the people who impose austerity have to bear responsibility for the inevitable outcomes is not outlandish. Per capita spending on health was cut by a 30%. What did they think would happen?

Here's another interesting graph

So even if Greece sticks to running budget surpluses for decades to come and is given all it's promised debt relief it's debt to GDP will still be over 100% in 2060. That is absolutely crazy and almost guarantees nasty political outcomes.

[Buddist Monk]

3 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Claiming that the people who impose austerity have to bear responsibility for the inevitable outcomes is not outlandish. Per capita spending on health was cut by a 30%. What did they think would happen?

Here's another interesting graph

So even if Greece sticks to running budget surpluses for decades to come and is given all it's promised debt relief it's debt to GDP will still be over 100% in 2060. That is absolutely crazy and almost guarantees nasty political outcomes.

No, your claim was that it was a targetted and malicious attack on the civilians of Greece perpetrated by the ECB. That's tin foil hat territory. You also claimed that the EU has a track record of such behaviour. Again that is not true.

Those are the outlandish claims.

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

H_B [emoji38]

[Cerberus]

Detournement-

[John Lambies Doos]

People not accepting that Corbyn fucked up and totally let the UK down during the EU Referendum

[WhiteRoseKillie]

15 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

People not accepting that Corbyn fucked up and totally let the UK down during the EU Referendum

Corbyn had the same number of votes as every other member of the electorate. I voted remain, but I blame those of my acquaintances who were more interested in reality TV and soaps than learning even a little bit about the biggest decision the majority of us would ever be asked to be involved in more than I blame any of the lying bast*rds on either campaign. 

You fúcked my kids' and grandkids' futures because you don't like foreigners. Well done. Cúnts.