The East Kilbride FC Thread

[Cowden Cowboy]

Best of luck to Cove v Berwick, if our two games with them are anything to go by, should cope easily. We never laid a glove on them over the two games,  absolutely no complaints about either result. Having faced Buckie and Cowdenbeath in previous play off games must say Cove a couple of levels above either and suspect they will  make real go of life in SPFL, so need to keep a sense of perspective. Doubt any similar challenge will emerge from Highland League any time soon.
On the other hand winning the Lowland League is invariably going to get harder and harder as the Tier5/6 set up is sorted. In fact that will be a good thing as will better prepare the winners to prevail in the play offs.
Agree 100% that automatic relegation for team 42 long overdue, a national embarrassment to  be honest. Shouldn't stop there either. Play offs across all levels from Premier down should be for getting up not staying up, another national embarrassment which rewards failure and we wonder why we lag behind. If 3 down from the Premiership in England ( no rewarding failure there) is good enough for arguably the  most succesful league in the world , then maybe we should give the concept a try. Recognise and reward ambition , not bail out failure. 

It's a national embarrassment in your house but for most folk they aren't bothered or favour a change but the whole nation just isn't cringing or being embarrassed by this aspect of Scottish football - that's the facts.

[cmontheloknow]

37 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

It's a national embarrassment in your house but for most folk they aren't bothered or favour a change but the whole nation just isn't cringing or being embarrassed by this aspect of Scottish football - that's the facts.

I think currently, and this is backed up by play off results, the jump from LL/HL to L2 is akin to that of L1 to Championship. Edinburgh City really struggled in their first few seasons to make an impression on mid table. When team 42 is consistently beaten by the play off winner, I think automatic promotion will come. Cove seem to have strengthened this season so will likely give BR a game. They have a faily iffy record prior to this though.

[ekok]

So that's fine , we will just keep rewarding failure. If you think coming last in any league at any level , when part of a pyramid set up with the specific intention is to have up and down movement,  then we will just have to disagree that having a stacked second chance ( last game always at home for team 42) is the way forward for Scottish football.

Over 2 games anything can happen, whereas being last anywhere else in world football( I stand to be corrected) and there is a level to move down to ( unlike the Highland League, but that's an issue for another day )then the whole point of competative sport is lost if that downward movement doesn't happen.

Just another example of the insidious self interest with which Scottish football is riven from top to bottom. As well as the principle of last goes down, play offs should be for going up not second chance staying up, at any level. Sorry I'm still embarrassed.

[The_Judge]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

I think currently, and this is backed up by play off results, the jump from LL/HL to L2 is akin to that of L1 to Championship. Edinburgh City really struggled in their first few seasons to make an impression on mid table. 

I personally think you're slightly overstating the jump.

Edinburgh City have only been in League 2 for three seasons.  In their first season they finished 7th ahead of Berwick Rangers, Clyde and Cowdenbeath.  In their second season they did finish 9th [8 points ahead of Cowdenbeath] and this season they've finished 3rd.

There are examples in all of our divisions of teams coming up and being smashed [Brechin] or doing well [Livingston].  

In the time I've been watching it I don't believe that League 2 has, on the whole, more skillful football players than the top teams in LL (many of whom have played higher than L2) but it is a tougher, dirtier standard. 

I fully understand why League 2 teams want to self preserve whether it be via no relegation or blocking of colt teams. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by The_Judge

[Cowden Cowboy]

Sour grapes is what is making your face red rather than embarrassment it seems. The SPFL clubs agreed to give non League sides an opportunity to advance so that was to their credit. The odds are hardly stacked in the SPFL clubs favour - a small advantage from the arrangements little more. The rules have been agreed by the participants and what applies elsewhere isn't really relevant - you could say for example in England where a team finishes sixth in the Championship and wins the play offs and then displaces a team third bottom that that isn't a fair system and that the latter club should have the right to contest head to head.

[G_&_T]

33 minutes ago, ekok said:

So that's fine , we will just keep rewarding failure. If you think coming last in any league at any level , when part of a pyramid set up with the specific intention is to have up and down movement,  then we will just have to disagree that having a stacked second chance ( last game always at home for team 42) is the way forward for Scottish football.

Over 2 games anything can happen, whereas being last anywhere else in world football( I stand to be corrected) and there is a level to move down to ( unlike the Highland League, but that's an issue for another day )then the whole point of competative sport is lost if that downward movement doesn't happen.

Just another example of the insidious self interest with which Scottish football is riven from top to bottom. As well as the principle of last goes down, play offs should be for going up not second chance staying up, at any level. Sorry I'm still embarrassed.

But if a club cannot triumph against the club that finishes bottom of the football league, over two legs, how can you justify arguing they should be playing in the football league? 

I prefer it the way it is, especially as I don't think it would be viable for many of the Highland League clubs to play at national level. 

[cowdenbeath]

14 minutes ago, The_Judge said:

I personally think you're slightly overstating the jump.

Edinburgh City have only been in League 2 for three seasons.  In their first season they finished 7th ahead of Berwick Rangers, Clyde and Cowdenbeath.  In their second season they did finish 9th [8 points ahead of Cowdenbeath] and this season they've finished 3rd.

There are examples in all of our divisions of teams coming up and being smashed [Brechin] or doing well [Livingston].  

In the time I've been watching it I don't believe that League 2 has, on the whole, more skillful football players than the top teams in LL (many of whom have played higher than L2) but it is a tougher, dirtier standard.  I'd like tiers 3, 4 and 5 to be merged into two larger 18 team divisions playing each other twice a season.

I fully understand why League 2 teams want to self preserve whether it be via no relegation or blocking of colt teams. 

By the midway point of their 2nd season in L2 City had moved on most if not all on the guys who had won the LL 2 years in a row so I would say there must be a big jump for a team moving between the 2 divisions.

[The_Judge]

2 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

By the midway point of their 2nd season in L2 City had moved on most if not all on the guys who had won the LL 2 years in a row so I would say there must be a big jump for a team moving between the 2 divisions.

So in their first season with, presumably, the same squad that won the LL they finished 7th?

[cmontheloknow]

13 minutes ago, The_Judge said:

I personally think you're slightly overstating the jump.

Edinburgh City have only been in League 2 for three seasons.  In their first season they finished 7th ahead of Berwick Rangers, Clyde and Cowdenbeath.  In their second season they did finish 9th [8 points ahead of Cowdenbeath] and this season they've finished 3rd.

There are examples in all of our divisions of teams coming up and being smashed [Brechin] or doing well [Livingston].  

In the time I've been watching it I don't believe that League 2 has, on the whole, more skillful football players than the top teams in LL (many of whom have played higher than L2) but it is a tougher, dirtier standard.  I'd like tiers 3, 4 and 5 to be merged into two larger 18 team divisions playing each other twice a season.

I fully understand why League 2 teams want to self preserve whether it be via no relegation or blocking of colt teams. 

Edinburgh City have stepped up their investment in order to pull clear this year. City didn't win a game til November in their 1st season up. They went with primarily their EoS side in year one but moved most on for year 2. I think only 5 of the 2015-16 side were still there come the latter stages of 17-18.

The play off results speak for themselves in terms of the standard:

2015: Montrose 3 Brora 2
2016: Shire 1 Edinburgh City 2
2017: Cowden 1 EK 1 (Cowden on pens)
2018: Cowden 3 Cove 2

[cowdenbeath]

Just now, The_Judge said:

So in their first season with, presumably, the same squad that won the LL they finished 7th?

Aye they had a few new players but it was mostly the same side, 

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, The_Judge said:

So in their first season with, presumably, the same squad that won the LL they finished 7th?

And as I say above, took til November to win a game.

[The_Judge]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Edinburgh City have stepped up their investment in order to pull clear this year. City didn't win a game til November in their 1st season up. They went with primarily their EoS side in year one but moved most on for year 2. I think only 5 of the 2015-16 side were still there come the latter stages of 17-18.

The play off results speak for themselves in terms of the standard:

2015: Montrose 3 Brora 2
2016: Shire 1 Edinburgh City 2
2017: Cowden 1 EK 1 (Cowden on pens)
2018: Cowden 3 Cove 2

With respect, when you look at just how close those ties were you cannot possibly say that it's indicative of a huge jump in standard!

[cmontheloknow]

28 minutes ago, The_Judge said:

With respect, when you look at just how close those ties were you cannot possibly say that it's indicative of a huge jump in standard!

The Scottish League side have won 75% of the matches. This being a Scottish League side that in the main have lost the majority of their fixtures here up against sides that have dominated their opponents all season. There is clearly a jump in standard. Cove's form dipped slightly as the games mounted up last April but they had cruised to the SHFL title.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Sour grapes is what is making your face red rather than embarrassment it seems. The SPFL clubs agreed to give non League sides an opportunity to advance so that was to their credit. The odds are hardly stacked in the SPFL clubs favour - a small advantage from the arrangements little more. The rules have been agreed by the participants and what applies elsewhere isn't really relevant - you could say for example in England where a team finishes sixth in the Championship and wins the play offs and then displaces a team third bottom that that isn't a fair system and that the latter club should have the right to contest head to head.

It's not a huge advantage over the two legs, but it's an a second chance not available to any other club coming last in their division.

[The_Judge]

14 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

The Scottish League side have won 75% of the matches. 

We're never going to see eye to eye on this.  The final result doesn't show how close the ties were.

Montrose scored twice in the last 14 minutes against 10 men to secure their place.

Cowdenbeath were level with LL opposition after 180 minutes.

Cowdenbeath scored what proved to be the winning goal against Cove with 20 minutes to go in the second leg with the benefit of (imho) an incredibly 'generous' refereeing decision.

What fair minded person could say that indicates a big jump in standard?

Edited May 5, 2019 by The_Judge

[big al]

15 hours ago, ekok said:

Best of luck to Cove v Berwick, if our two games with them are anything to go by, should cope easily. We never laid a glove on them over the two games,  absolutely no complaints about either result. Having faced Buckie and Cowdenbeath in previous play off games must say Cove a couple of levels above either and suspect they will  make real go of life in SPFL, so need to keep a sense of perspective. Doubt any similar challenge will emerge from Highland League any time soon.

On the other hand winning the Lowland League is invariably going to get harder and harder as the Tier5/6 set up is sorted. In fact that will be a good thing as will better prepare the winners to prevail in the play offs.

Agree 100% that automatic relegation for team 42 long overdue, a national embarrassment to  be honest. Shouldn't stop there either. Play offs across all levels from Premier down should be for getting up not staying up, another national embarrassment which rewards failure and we wonder why we lag behind. If 3 down from the Premiership in England ( no rewarding failure there) is good enough for arguably the  most succesful league in the world , then maybe we should give the concept a try. Recognise and reward ambition , not bail out failure. 

 Cove seem to be from an affluent area and might well be capable of a decent campaign in L2. 

Cant agree it’s a national embarrassment though, feel the frustration of your result is affecting your judgement there.

Also, can’t say 3 down in England so 3 down here. The leagues are twice as big so it’s a non starter. Based on England’s format, almost every team in the 10 team League 1 here would be involved in promotion or relegation playoffs. 6th in a 10 team league does not deserve to go up.

[ekok]

Hi you could not be more wrong about our performances, results causing sour grapes.  If you read my initial post I was very clear we were well beaten by Cove, you just don't get it, it is the process that is an embarrassment,  no matter which Clubs are involved.

The English example was just that, not suggesting for a minute 3 up and down between Tier5/6, it is the principle that matters.  The fact that certain posters are happy to defend a process that flies in the face of every single aspect of sporting integrity and as far as I know the only such one in world football ( I still stand to be corrected) then let's keep rewarding failure and all will be well.

We failed in last two games, accepted the fact, genuinely wished Cove well and will move on. Maybe should try it.

[pipedreamer]

If the SPFL clubs want the HFL and LL to adopt their registration rules to prevent released players being able to sign out with the transfer window in non league, then IMO they should be willing to change the playoff to automatic relegation for the worst team in the professional leagues. 

 

The fact that that the team relegated with a £40k head start on the teams around them hasn’t bounced straight back up shows you the league below is stronger than you think. When Cowdenbeath are relegated (it’s inevitable that it will happen in the next 5-10 years imo) Cowden Cowboy will change his tune when they are stuck in the Lowland League as they need to win a playoff with HFL and then club 42.

[Cowden Cowboy]

5 minutes ago, pipedreamer said:

If the SPFL clubs want the HFL and LL to adopt their registration rules to prevent released players being able to sign out with the transfer window in non league, then IMO they should be willing to change the playoff to automatic relegation for the worst team in the professional leagues. 

 

The fact that that the team relegated with a £40k head start on the teams around them hasn’t bounced straight back up shows you the league below is stronger than you think. When Cowdenbeath are relegated (it’s inevitable that it will happen in the next 5-10 years imo) Cowden Cowboy will change his tune when they are stuck in the Lowland League as they need to win a playoff with HFL and then club 42.

Cowden Cowboy won't change his tune which has been very consistent since the pyramid started - auto promotion requires a fully functioning and structured pyramid below SPFL which has the right teams at the right level, stronger Tier 5 leagues in terms of competition, sponsorship, etc.  If Tier 5 has say Berwick, Kelty, EK and Bonnyrigg then it is getting stronger and going along the right path.   I have never said their shouldn't be auto promotion but that is once the pyramid is properly bedded in and LL has the strongest teams in it - there will be many EOSL teams next season who are better teams than a number of those in the LL.  There's only been one team relegated - the Shire who had more or less been a basket case for years.  £40k wasn't enough to tackle their underlying problems - there is no conclusion can be drawn from that example re LL is stronger than you think. 

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

It's not a huge advantage over the two legs, but it's an a second chance not available to any other club coming last in their division.

As opposed to the no chance that used to be on offer to Non-league teams - the fact is the SPFL clubs gave a concession that didn't exist before based on expectation that a strong pyramid would be established involving the big junior guns as well as Non League senior side.