The political divide

[beermonkey]

15 hours ago, Cream Cheese said:

People didn't need to be persuaded to vote for Brexit. It was won on empty slogans that played on peoples contempt of foreigners and the establishment. The problem the YES campaign had in Scotland wasn't a case of questions not being answered, but rather making people think too hard. If we're going to win a 2nd independence referendum, then it needs to be won on simplicity, not by over complicating matters, which only serves to put people off.

Contempt of the EU establishment, yes....comtempt of foreigners?...are people still spouting that line?

 

Dear oh dear.

[oldbitterandgrumpy]

On 7/22/2016 at 09:21, Antlion said:

"happy go lucky" Orangeman

Doesn't half stretch the imagination. Even the Fast Show didn't dream up anything that bizarre. 

[Cream Cheese]

1 hour ago, beermonkey said:

Contempt of the EU establishment, yes....comtempt of foreigners?...are people still spouting that line?

 

Dear oh dear.

[Cream Cheese]

18 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Fide deals in simplicities and polarised thinking. The world is reduced to good and bad. Political decisions reduced to one or two simple issues. It keeps a complex world simple and understandable for him.

Much like Brexit?

[jakedee]

Well said. The UK has a long and Successful history to draw on. Created by Scottish Royalty as it was in Scotland's beat interests to be conjoined with England for both economic and security reasons. That is still true today and to anyone who says otherwise I say 'Take yer blinkers off, Neddy'.

Independence for it's own sake or for anti-English prejudice or, as in the case of the SNP, to secure power for one's own agenda is exactly that.........but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.

Are the SNP banning democracy when Scotland is independent?

[Gordon EF]

ScotNat / BritNat A : You only voted (No / Yes) because you're a vile anti- (Scottish / English) bigot.

BritNat / ScotNat B: How dare you presume to know the minds of myself and hundreds of thousands of others who voted (No / Yes). Got any evidence for this you fucking Nazi!

5 minutes later on another thread.

BritNat / ScotNat B : You only voted (Yes / No) because you're a vile anti- (English / Scottish) bigot.

ScotNat / BritNat A: How dare you presume to know the minds of myself and hundreds of thousands of others who voted (Yes / No). Got any evidence for this you fucking Nazi!

[Fide]

3 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Yep, we're the ones filled with hate and intolerance eh!? Jeez

 

2 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

He's an utter joke. The other decent independence supporters on here must cringe every time he posts.

 

1 hour ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Fide deals in simplicities and polarised thinking. The world is reduced to good and bad. Political decisions reduced to one or two simple issues. It keeps a complex world simple and understandable for him.

What utter rage.

Pleasing.

[RedRob72]

What utter rage.

Pleasing.

No ones raging Fidey, it's just the way you like to see it, god knows why it would please you anyway, it's slightly strange behaviour no!?

[Mortar Bored]

I don't think accusing Fide of dealing in simplicities is accurate, Fide, very often posts interesting & stimulating articles which he has obviously read & digested.
The more I read this forum however, reminds me of the BRALT, where opposing views are so entrenched that no amount of debate ever elicits a sensible discussion.
As a Sottish Independence supporter, I'd rather understand why Unionists hold that view, and if possible, persuade them otherwise, this BritNat, SNPnazi shite gets us nowhere.
I'm absolutely certain this post will be shot down, but I truly believe that facts and persuasion are better than hostility and hate.

[Antlion]

28 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

It's not rage it's exasperation of dealing with an idiot and bemusement at the utter rubbish you come out with.

You have an emotional attachment to a separate Scotland but instead of looking at the issues in depth and forming a rational decision either way you just pre rehearse a few lines and regurgitate them on here. Your like one of those types you get on Rangers forums that just answer everything with "WATP" or "God save the queen".

Criticising someone for having an emotional attachment to the idea of Scotland as a nation state is somewhat undermined when the critic's own emotional attachment to Scotland as an incorporated region is writ plain in their choice of avatar.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, Mortar Bored said:

I don't think accusing Fide of dealing in simplicities is accurate, Fide, very often posts interesting & stimulating articles which he has obviously read & digested.
The more I read this forum however, reminds me of the BRALT, where opposing views are so entrenched that no amount of debate ever elicits a sensible discussion.
As a Sottish Independence supporter, I'd rather understand why Unionists hold that view, and if possible, persuade them otherwise, this BritNat, SNPnazi shite gets us nowhere.
I'm absolutely certain this post will be shot down, but I truly believe that facts and persuasion are better than hostility and hate.

Good post.

I posted this earlier perhaps a BritNat could give their opinion on these questions.
Like you I'm curious as to their mindset.
Do they really accept that English politicians should decide Scotlands future.
Are they happy with that?

...but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.
What is best for Scotland?
Let English politicians make all the decisions regarding Scotland's place in the world.
Decide for us that bombing another country is somehow progress.
Keeping WMD are somehow good for us although through our elected representatives the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected that.

In your opinion what is best for Scotland?

[Mortar Bored]

Willie, I am absolutely with you on principal, but, I do feel a lot of Indy supporters are too guilty of denigrating the people who are currently in favour of the union.
My perspective, for what it's worth, is, we need to engage politically & socially with unionists. We need to understand their argument for the Union and if at all possible, persuade them otherwise.
Now, that said, there are people so entrenched that they won't listen to reason, as there are on the Indy side. This is a politics forum, not the Bralt. I'll happily & friendly engage with any unionist if I think it will let me understand their viewpoint , thus giving me an opportunity to persuade them otherwise.

[mjw]

Your like one of those types you get on Rangers forums that just answer everything with "WATP" or "God save the queen".

You don't need to go on a Rangers forum for that.
Thats most of the berrs on here.

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, Mortar Bored said:

Willie, I am absolutely with you on principal, but, I do feel a lot of Indy supporters are too guilty of denigrating the people who are currently in favour of the union.
My perspective, for what it's worth, is, we need to engage politically & socially with unionists. We need to understand their argument for the Union and if at all possible, persuade them otherwise.
Now, that said, there are people so entrenched that they won't listen to reason, as there are on the Indy side. This is a politics forum, not the Bralt. I'll happily & friendly engage with any unionist if I think it will let me understand their viewpoint , thus giving me an opportunity to persuade them otherwise.

I agree.

Most of the Nouveau Nationalists are akin to Born again Christians, fervent, holier than thou and  so sure of their vciewpoint to the exclusion of rationale and common sense.

Luckily most people are not so easily deluded.

Wee  Winkie tries to pull my posts apart and fails miserably every time. For example:  I posted that Independence is not what's best for Scotland and he asks 'What's best for Scotland' when it's quite obvious that I must be saying the Union with rUK is what's best for Scotland. He cannot even understand the most simple statements such is his Nationalist fervour.

The onus is on YES to persuade that Independence would make a material difference to our lives. So far they have failed. In fact if we had voted YES in 2014 we would be up shit creek without a paddle. 

He asks why we accept English politicians making decisions for us.......That is inherently racist  as a person's place of birth is irrelevant to making good decisions. Is he saying that having been born in a given geographical area makes people superior......Racist!

Obviously only pure bred Celts are welcome in Wee Winkie's  Jockutopia.

 

Back to the thread.......I disagree. Apart from a couple of political decisions regarding , say, Trident, Scotland and rUK have more in common politically. Day to day life and people's aspirations are pretty much the same wherever you are in the UK

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

Back to the thread.......I disagree. Apart from a couple of political decisions regarding , say, Trident, Scotland and rUK have more in common politically. Day to day life and people's aspirations are pretty much the same wherever you are in the UK

In the spirit of Mortar Bored's 'newer, cuddlier' vision of indy debate, I'll ignore the first part of your post and focus on this.

Aren't most people's day to day lives and aspirations pretty similar all over most of Europe / north west Europe? The things people worry about, want, and deal with day to day are all quite similar. Of course people from the British Isles are, generally, culturally more similar than other Europeans but that's only in the broader sense. I've met people from all over the world I have much more in common with than people i went to school with.

Do you really not think Scotland and rUK are diverging politically? I know some social attitude survey will probably be brought up when you look at what happens when people actually get into the ballot box, Scottish and English voters have been voting very differently recently. 55.1% of voters in England voted for right of centre parties in 2015, that figure in Scotland was 16.5%.  The Leave vote in England was 53.4% and just 38.0% in Scotland.

Whilst your average generic Scot and your average generic English person might enjoy doing very similar things and have very similar aspirations in life, it's quite clear that, as countries, there's a fairly significant difference of opinion about how we would like our society to be.

This isn't a controversial viewpoint. It's been covered and accepted by the vast majority of commentators. I'd hope even most reasonable unionists would accept this. The only real disagreement is how much of a problem it is and what, if any, steps should be taken to reflect that in the governance of these islands.

Ultimately, for me, independence is not about putting up personal (or any other kind) of barrier. It comes from me thinking about what kind of society I want Scotland to be and deciding if my vision is closer to what we are within the UK or what we could be as an independent country. It's not about drawing a line and saying 'I only care about what happens to the people on this side of the line and i don't care about what happens on that side'.

I'm genuinely interested in finding out if unionists such as yourself are willing or even capable of understanding and accepting that.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

I agree.

Most of the Nouveau Nationalists are akin to Born again Christians, fervent, holier than thou and  so sure of their vciewpoint to the exclusion of rationale and common sense.

Luckily most people are not so easily deluded.

Wee  Winkie tries to pull my posts apart and fails miserably every time. For example:  I posted that Independence is not what's best for Scotland and he asks 'What's best for Scotland' when it's quite obvious that I must be saying the Union with rUK is what's best for Scotland. He cannot even understand the most simple statements such is his Nationalist fervour.

The onus is on YES to persuade that Independence would make a material difference to our lives. So far they have failed. In fact if we had voted YES in 2014 we would be up shit creek without a paddle. 

He asks why we accept English politicians making decisions for us.......That is inherently racist  as a person's place of birth is irrelevant to making good decisions. Is he saying that having been born in a given geographical area makes people superior......Racist!

Obviously only pure bred Celts are welcome in Wee Winkie's  Jockutopia.

 

Back to the thread.......I disagree. Apart from a couple of political decisions regarding , say, Trident, Scotland and rUK have more in common politically. Day to day life and people's aspirations are pretty much the same wherever you are in the UK

I see you're still spewing shite.

I've been a Scottish nationalist since 1953 so I'm no a Nouvea Nationalist.
I'm an atheist so I'm no holier than thou and my viewpoint is as rational and as common sense as anybody elses.
Mortar Bored was asking for some friendly engagement with unionists to try and see things from their perspective.
That obviously excludes you.
I gave a couple of good examples of where SNP and unionists disagree and all you can give in return is some snidey remarks and omitting to give a coherent rebuttal of my points.

...but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.
What is best for Scotland?
Let English politicians make all the decisions regarding Scotland's place in the world.
Decide for us that bombing another country is somehow progress.
Keeping WMD are somehow good for us although through our elected representatives the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected that.

In your opinion what is best for Scotland?

You really are a numpty.
It was you who said it was best for Scotland (the UK) and I just asked it again but pointed out a few flaws in your argument.
Your answer to that is to use the racist card and say f**k all.
You never answer any of the questions I put in my posts but just give abuse.

I'll try once more and perhaps Chlamydia Kid could mibbe answer as well.

From a unionists POV do you accept
That English politicians make all the decisions regarding Scotland's place in the world.
Decide for us that bombing another country is somehow progress.
Keeping WMD are somehow good for us although through our elected representatives the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected that.

____

Apart from a couple of political decisions regarding , say, Trident, Scotland and rUK have more in common politically. Day to day life and people's aspirations are pretty much the same wherever you are in the UK
That could be said for any country in Europe (if no the world).

[Wee Willie]

3 hours ago, Mortar Bored said:

Willie, I am absolutely with you on principal, but, I do feel a lot of Indy supporters are too guilty of denigrating the people who are currently in favour of the union.
My perspective, for what it's worth, is, we need to engage politically & socially with unionists. We need to understand their argument for the Union and if at all possible, persuade them otherwise.
Now, that said, there are people so entrenched that they won't listen to reason, as there are on the Indy side. This is a politics forum, not the Bralt. I'll happily & friendly engage with any unionist if I think it will let me understand their viewpoint , thus giving me an opportunity to persuade them otherwise.

I ken whit ye mean but when you're faced with thick c**ts like shitespreader it's difficult to converse rationally or reasonably.
My post was just endorsing your post and I asked a couple of questions that Indy supporters and unionists disagree on.
All I wanted was a unionist rebuttal of my points - and the silly c**t comes up with the racist card.

[Fide]

4 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

It's not rage it's exasperation of dealing with an idiot and bemusement at the utter rubbish you come out with.

You have an emotional attachment to a separate Scotland but instead of looking at the issues in depth and forming a rational decision either way you just pre rehearse a few lines and regurgitate them on here. Your like one of those types you get on Rangers forums that just answer everything with "WATP" or "God save the queen".

The fact that you believe I don't look at the issues in depth shows the contempt in which your opinion should be held.

Sit doon.

[NotThePars]

I wouldn't have a problem with Westminster rule if there was any hint that they broadly have the interests of the poorest in our society at heart but they don't. So I have a major problem with being ruled by them. The SNP are pure populism and appeasing the middle classes but I do believe that it's done for political expediency and there's a contingent within the party, aided by the Greens, who will steer Scotland in a more compassionate and socialist direction.

[RedRob72]

I read all of Willie's posts, reckon he's a good bloke, a guy that you would happily exchange views with over a wee pint! Sorry but we're far short of voting again for independence in a 2nd Ref. The U.K./EU ref has put it back by at least 10 years.