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Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit

Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit  

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If that's your yardstick, why was there no rebellion against, and clamour to remove, Brown? Was the PLP full of shitebags back then as well?

Fuckin hell. How stupid are some of you people?! It isn't my 'yardstick'. I have the ability to analyse a number of issues and come to a conclusion. Maybe Brown worked well with the PLP. Maybe they thought he was competent and respected him as a leader. Maybe he'd built up some respect as he he wasn't a rebel. I don't know. A number of factors can combine to form opinions.

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21 minutes ago, Cream Cheese said:

After independence, it's fair game. England will get the government that it votes for as it always has done. It's not our concern who other countries vote in as their governments.

Two words.  Donald Trump.

It concerns me, even if I have no control over it.

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2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Two words.  Donald Trump.

It concerns me, even if I have no control over it.

Perhaps so. But there's about a million and one things going on around the world to be concerned about. So why even bother?

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9 hours ago, BerwickMad said:


The evidence suggests it isn't appealing to Labour supporters in the heartlands, but is to the middle class, university graduate, southern membership. Personally, I want to see an alternative government with Labour values appealing to as many people as possible, not an experiment to keep Rupert in the Green Shop happy.

I have to say having read through this thread that you have described Labour's problems to a tee.

There is a schism between the few  thousand Labour Party officials/members and the millions of Labour voters.

Labour is a London centric party of well off  upper middle class professionals/ university graduates who are too far removed from the grass roots support.

Labour no longer represents, or even understands it's traditional support base

There are so many issues facing low skilled, low paid workers and the unemployed but these  issues aren't as sexy or have as much social media impact as  ,say,Refugees, Eu migration or whatever and former Labour voters see Labour as championing every other cause under the sun except theirs.

The Labour party as is will never be in Govt again.

 

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2 hours ago, BerwickMad said:

Fuckin hell. How stupid are some of you people?! It isn't my 'yardstick'. I have the ability to analyse a number of issues and come to a conclusion. Maybe Brown worked well with the PLP. Maybe they thought he was competent and respected him as a leader. Maybe he'd built up some respect as he he wasn't a rebel. I don't know. A number of factors can combine to form opinions.

You know full well why the PLP didn't stage a coup against Brown; because he was one of them.

A red Tory who represents a total betrayal of eveything Labour was established to stand for. Corbyn is the antithesis of the PLP's core values which include diet-Thatcherism and war-mongering imperialism.

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15 hours ago, doulikefish said:

All Corbyn types get  voted onto the nec,owen smith is donald ducked

Just to add johanne baxter got voted off,this pleases me

I had obviously missed this post.  Yeah it is looking like good news, apparently Jim Murphy tried to block a Jewish anti-Semitic camapigner from getting on!  Jings.

I'm sure we will now see huge headlines accusing the pro-Zionist Murphy of anti-Semitism; then again maybe not.  

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37022656

Tom Watson showing himself to be a duplicitous c**t.  No surprise there.

Meanwhile more bad news for Owen Smith, Ed Miliband is supporting him.  Be as well giving up now Owen.  :(

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37022656

Tom Watson showing himself to be a duplicitous c**t.  No surprise there.

Meanwhile more bad news for Owen Smith, Ed Miliband is supporting him.  Be as well giving up now Owen.  



I'm not one to defend Tom Watson, but is he supposed to just not say anything critical of Corbyn? Everyone in the party knows that Trot entryism is in full force, it's hardly a revaluation.

Far more revealing that Corbyn's people instantly respond in a completely over the top way to a mild and accurate criticism.

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You didn't seem to have a problem with Blairite entryism. They've got hundreds of thousands of new members. There aren't that many Trotskyites in Britain.

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Think this is heading for a split now, if as seems likely Corbyn wins. Reselection will probably be needed for most sitting MPs in the next general election due to the boundary changes review that will happen in 2018 and in the current climate that means a lot of deselections. Odds on the Blairites jump before they are pushed. 

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On 08/08/2016 at 20:00, trainspotter said:

If that's your yardstick, why was there no rebellion against, and clamour to remove, Brown? Was the PLP full of shitebags back then as well?

Thatcher won 3 general election and was forced out. 

Major won a stunning upset general election and was forced to hold a leadership election to shore up his position. 

Blair won 3 elections and was forced out by parliamentary plotting.

Brown was nearly forced into a leadership election in July 2008 but it could not build enough momentum. Leaders with strong records of electoral success face constant streams of plots. It is a delusion by the Corbyn Cult to try to portray him as some kind of one off for facing pressure. He does face unusually strong pressure unusually early but he has had a terrible start to his tenure in both personal and party polling numbers together with his clumsy "leadership".

Of opposition leaders Blair rode high in the polls and faced opposition to his policies not his leadership. Hague was always under pressure but it never materialised into a full blown leadership bid (Portillo and Clarke were the usual suspects), IDS was forced out with better polling than Corbyn, Howard was a "unity" stand in. Cameron had excellent polling numbers. Milliband was under constant, hostile attack from the press but did have very good party polling numbers, often more than 8 points clear. 

 

Obviously IDS was another who was unfairly treated by the Blairites or something. :rolleyes:

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Think this is heading for a split now, if as seems likely Corbyn wins. Reselection will probably be needed for most sitting MPs in the next general election due to the boundary changes review that will happen in 2018 and in the current climate that means a lot of deselections. Odds on the Blairites jump before they are pushed. 



Would have thought this unlikely even a month ago but I think you're right. The anti-Corbyn MP's response immediately after his re-election will be fascinating. They'll see themselves as having nothing to lose.

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'if you give people the option of Tory or Tory lite, they'll just vote Tory'

No if people are to the left of Tory, they'll vote Tory lite. A majority of English people who vote in General Elections are at least comfortably financially. If you want to pitch your policies at those who have just done 14 hours down t'pit you'll lose.

Jmo is an absolute c**t but he's right. The sooner Scotland gets out of this fucked up Union the better

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'if you give people the option of Tory or Tory lite, they'll just vote Tory'

No if people are to the left of Tory, they'll vote Tory lite. A majority of English people who vote in General Elections are at least comfortably financially. If you want to pitch your policies at those who have just done 14 hours down t'pit you'll lose.

Jmo is an absolute c**t but he's right. The sooner Scotland gets out of this fucked up Union the better





I'm actually quite a nice guy.

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3 hours ago, jmothecat said:

 


I'm not one to defend Tom Watson, but is he supposed to just not say anything critical of Corbyn? Everyone in the party knows that Trot entryism is in full force, it's hardly a revaluation.

Far more revealing that Corbyn's people instantly respond in a completely over the top way to a mild and accurate criticism.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bully Di Villa said:

You didn't seem to have a problem with Blairite entryism. They've got hundreds of thousands of new members. There aren't that many Trotskyites in Britain.

Exactly.  It's been over 20 years since I left the Labour Party and was heavily involved in politics, but I somehow doubt if Trotskyites have multiplied by the numbers that would allow that level of entryism and influence.  Most of the Trotskyists I encountered were too busy arguing with each other/anyone/themselves or hiding in their rooms writing revolutionary manifestos to actually breed.

Mind you if you're looking for an excuse to explain why tens/hundreds of thousands of folk have turned their back on the self-serving establishment time servers in the PLP I suppose Trotskyist entryism is as good as anything.

 

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Think this is heading for a split now, if as seems likely Corbyn wins. Reselection will probably be needed for most sitting MPs in the next general election due to the boundary changes review that will happen in 2018 and in the current climate that means a lot of deselections. Odds on the Blairites jump before they are pushed. 


Dont see a split happening. The plp plotting against corbyn and briefing against him in the media are far too comfortable in their jobs. They are more interested in safe seats and salaries than any political principles. They would happily wear tory rosettes if there were enough tory safe seats to be parachuted into. In many cases those mps were picked by central office and the local clp were either compliant apathetic or simply too low on numbers to debate if that was the right candidate for the area.

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...but that last bit is definitely not the case any more and Corbyn also now controls the NEC. If he wins the leadership challenge, he has to get rid of the Blairites before the next election to be able to go into it with a slate of candidates that will back him and accept his cabinet appointments, so a wave deselection attempts becomes inevitable. I think that means that most of the PLP splits away from Corbyn and rebrands SDP in the 1980s style. They would need to have the numbers to become the main opposition party for the next four years to make a success of it by reducing Corbynite Labour to third or fourth in the pecking order at prime minister's question time and that to me looks like the only possible sticking point at this stage.

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