Fide Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 20 minutes ago, BerwickMad said: On Facebook yesterday. This thread is about the Labour leadership contest. Infact even on here I've talked about the damage the Tories are doing and the effect it's having on the people I work with. Which is why I want a strong Labour Party. Would you say, in general lately, you've devoted more time to telling people what a dick Corbyn is or what dicks the Tories are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Would you say, in general lately, you've devoted more time to telling people what a dick Corbyn is or what dicks the Tories are? I don't think Corbyn is a dick. I quite like him. I just don't think he's a good leader, and believe his poor leadership abilities are letting the Tories get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I don't agree with everything Jones says in that article, but generally it's excellent. As a left-winger I personally believe that the best way for the left to become a credible force at a UK level is for Labour to hurry up and die as much as that will - particularly for England for Wales - cause some painful years while another credible left-wing party emerges, but if your starting point is wanting a left-wing Labour Party to flourish it brings up some pertinent questions. It seems to be the accepted position that if you're left-wing you have to support Corbyn at all costs, when in reality you should be seriously questioning whether he's capable of being Prime Minister and concluding in the face of all available evidence that he can't win. You should be looking at the prospects of the left as a political force post-Corbyn, and it's clear that if he goes into 2020 and gets routed then it won't only finish him but sink the left for decades. Obviously Owen Smith isn't the answer, but you should be looking at how to have Corbyn transitioning to a leader who's just as left-wing but isn't absolutely hopeless at leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Dunning1874 said: I don't agree with everything Jones says in that article, but generally it's excellent. As a left-winger I personally believe that the best way for the left to become a credible force at a UK level is for Labour to hurry up and die as much as that will - particularly for England for Wales - cause some painful years while another credible left-wing party emerges, but if your starting point is wanting a left-wing Labour Party to flourish it brings up some pertinent questions. It seems to be the accepted position that if you're left-wing you have to support Corbyn at all costs, when in reality you should be seriously questioning whether he's capable of being Prime Minister and concluding in the face of all available evidence that he can't win. You should be looking at the prospects of the left as a political force post-Corbyn, and it's clear that if he goes into 2020 and gets routed then it won't only finish him but sink the left for decades. Obviously Owen Smith isn't the answer, but you should be looking at how to have Corbyn transitioning to a leader who's just as left-wing but isn't absolutely hopeless at leadership. There is a lot to digest in that post. I sympathise with folk who question Corbyn's leadership skills for genuine reasons; the problem is that there are so many whose reasons are far from genuine. The idea of the Tories having control of Westminster for the next 15 or 20 years is not an edifying one but neither is the Labour Party passing up on the chance to make real and significant changes. A Tory-lite Labour Party that has more chance of defeating the real Tories holds few attractions for me. One thing that has been brought into sharp focus by this situation is the apparent absolute dearth of quality within the PLP. I say apparent because there may be some capable people who have not come to the fore but in terms of those names mentioned in the poll and others I have seen there seems to be little talent about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cream Cheese Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 You could never replace Corbyn with somebody equally as left wing and have those MPs happy about it. They will rebel against any leader as left wing as Corbyn, regardless of who they are. There's a lot wrong with the Labour Party at the moment. Corbyn isn't part of that problem imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Any members know how you attend the upcoming Leadership debates? There's one in Birmingham on 18th August I fancy attending. I've received an email asking if I have any questions but not sure how or if it is possible to turn up? Or is it just an online thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cream Cheese Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 "Choose Labours next Prime Minister" http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/leadership-debates-2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Jones' article does pose some searching questions, but stops just short of offering any concrete solutions or arriving at difficult conclusions. Having said that, given the persuasions of his core audience and his documented connections to Corbyn's team, it is a brave and introspective piece. In a rather convoluted way, I do find myself in agreement with many of Corbyn's supporters when they complain that Smith doesn't have a much better chance of winning an election for Labour than Corbyn does. I mean, I don't think Owen Smith would have a hope in hell of defeating Theresa May in 2020 - or earlier, as the case may be. I would possibly go as far as saying that, if circumstances conspired against him, he could perform significantly worse than Ed Miliband against David Cameron. We know from very recent history that Miliband's 'I'll be tough but not really that tough' strategy categorically does not work. From what I have read into his campaign so far, Smith is essentially running on a reheated version of that same platform. And, considering the loudest complaint against Corbyn is that he couldn't mobilise the necessary support to win a general election (and would most likely lose very badly), that doesn't strike me as the most obvious or compelling alternative. I'm sure many Corbyn supporters/sympathisers would be open to persuasion if the right alternative candidate emerged, and I'm not even convinced that they would necessarily have to be an ally or supporter of Corbyn himself. I do think they would have to stand a plausible chance of winning an election, however. It is worth remembering that some of the people who voted for Corbyn last year and will vote for him again, also voted for David Miliband in 2010. This suggests that it is about more than just ideology. In other words, some Corbyn supporters might be willing to compromise if they genuinely believed that the alternative candidate stood a decent chance of defeating the Tories. But abandoning Corbyn for 220 seats under Owen Smith? That's not going to cut it. It was most likely the same story last year - compromise for 250 seats under Andy Burnham? That's a tricky sell. Compromise for a majority Labour government with Another Candidate? Maybe that could work. At this stage, I would probably go as far as saying that Smith is an objectively worse candidate than all three who stood against Corbyn last year. Whilst I understand his reluctance to run on an 'I'd probably lose less badly than Corbyn but still not win' platform, it is just about the most honest thing that can be said of his candidacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmothecat Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Any members know how you attend the upcoming Leadership debates? There's one in Birmingham on 18th August I fancy attending. I've received an email asking if I have any questions but not sure how or if it is possible to turn up? Or is it just an online thing? I don't know, I was wondering the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 Had an invitation asking me to apply to be in the audience for a debate in Gateshead on 11th August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 You never know lads. Play your cards right and get the crowd going at these debates and you could build the momentum to get the Tories out of office in 2030. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 You never know lads. Play your cards right and get the crowd going at these debates and you could build the momentum to get the Tories out of office in 2030. I doubt it, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Leadership debate live on YouTube now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 36 minutes ago, mjw said: Leadership debate live on YouTube now. Was listening to the preview of this earlier today on the radio. Corbyn, who is accused of having no policies, talking about policies - Owen talking about the Labour Party splitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Owen smith just seems to say "i agree with jeremy on this" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudge Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Being a good leader and being perceived by the electorate as a strong leader, fit to be PM are two different things. People are stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 19 minutes ago, Fudge said: Being a good leader and being perceived by the electorate as a strong leader, fit to be PM are two different things. People are stupid. You are not a person then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted August 4, 2016 Share Posted August 4, 2016 You are not a person then? Way to miss the point chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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