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Gordon Strachan


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When was 4-4-2 ever seen as toxic? Other than by us, of course? I'm pretty sure that the opponents didn't need us telling them how we lined up, like it's some elaborate cover-up. Far too much is made of covert tactical set-ups when the basic tools are generally not utilised properly.

Maybe it has just been us. at times it has felt like suggesting 442 was more absurd than to walking into a hipster bar and ordering a pint of tennents and a razor.

On radio Scotland today Cosgrove was talking about how, in the last 5 years or so, if any Scottish team achieved a victory with 442, fans, pundits etc would squirm and wrestle with language to instead frame it as a 4411 or an unorthodox 4231. In essence I agree that pinning out hopes on a tactic alone is foolish.

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It's only foolish, if you're wrong. Most of the punditry in Scotland, or for that matter management and coaching in general, has absolutely no consideration for the opponent, and what way to beat them. It's a horrible hybrid of getting '100% from the boys', while trying to appear innovative and cutting-edge. We really, really aren't.

Want to know why Wales and NI are better than us? They keep things simple. Tactics and formations don't win a single thing, players do. But they're human beings at their work like everyone else, and need instruction. There may not be a way out of this mess for a long time yet, but can we honestly say Strachan has tried everything in his power to change that? Of course he hasn't. And his nodding dogs in the media, who pelted Deila over his refusal to play two up front for Sellick, do his job for him by dodging the main issues, like trying something different.

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It's nothing to do with being hipster.  If we had the players to effectively play 4-4-2 then there would be nothing wrong with playing it.  But we don't, and it's no coincidence that very few other teams, let alone nations, don't employ it.  As has been said so many times before, taking out a midfielder from a side like us is going to make us far weaker defensively.  When you couple that with us having pretty dreadful defenders relatively, it's a recipe for disaster.   And I'm not even that sure we have two strikers that could make that even close to worthwhile.

 

But having said that, far, far too much emphasis is put on formations alone.  It matters not what formation a team is supposed to play - you can have a wonderfully set up formation, or a dreadfully set up one.  Just like playing one forward isn't inherently negative, or playing two is inherently positive.  f**k it, sides are playing with no forwards these days, does that make them super negative?

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Put simply, he brings the three that play behind him - who are often our best players - into the game.  It's really not that hard to see that.  We don't have the players to keep measured possession and await our chance to slip a pacey striker through - we don't have creative midfielders like that, and we don't have a striker like that.  What we do have is someone who can hold the ball up and bring others into the game.  And he does it well. 

 

Too many just fall into the tired, retro trap of only looking at his goal tally, when fortunately forwards are judged by more than just that these days.  Again though, as I've always said, if someone comes up who is better, he'll be in the squad instead.

 

while he may bring others into play, then what? and i dont mean that in a cheeky way but what do the 3 behind fletcher offer other than the odd long range effort, its not like fletcher has a striking partner that they can then play through balls to, our style of play tends to be

 

play it up to fletcher

he holds it up

knocks it back to he 3 behind him or even out wide

that player then sees heehaw in front of him and has to go back

we lose the ball and spend the next 3 minutes running aorund trying to get it back

 

the whole method of 1 up front and 3 in behind isnt working with the current method of the big lump of wood up top holding it up to give it back to guys 10 yards further away from the opponents goal, maybe its time to try something different, we have pace out wide, why not try the balls in behind the fullbacks and an actual penalty box striker who will perhaps get us a goal or two in important games

 

btw it wasnt a dig at you, more a highlighting of the fact that our system has failed to qualify for too many tournaments and it needs to change, both system and personnel

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while he may bring others into play, then what? and i dont mean that in a cheeky way but what do the 3 behind fletcher offer other than the odd long range effort, its not like fletcher has a striking partner that they can then play through balls to, our style of play tends to be

 

play it up to fletcher

he holds it up

knocks it back to he 3 behind him or even out wide

that player then sees heehaw in front of him and has to go back

we lose the ball and spend the next 3 minutes running aorund trying to get it back

 

the whole method of 1 up front and 3 in behind isnt working with the current method of the big lump of wood up top holding it up to give it back to guys 10 yards further away from the opponents goal, maybe its time to try something different, we have pace out wide, why not try the balls in behind the fullbacks and an actual penalty box striker who will perhaps get us a goal or two in important games

 

btw it wasnt a dig at you, more a highlighting of the fact that our system has failed to qualify for too many tournaments and it needs to change, both system and personnel

 

Get where you're coming from, but I think that's a failing of the players rather than what they're being asked to do.  We don't really have midfielders that will play those through balls, which I think is why Griffiths will always look a bit out of his depth.  He'd be much better suited to that kind of play, but we don't really have that.  You mention having quick wide players, but that's more in our full-backs.  The players further forward - Ritchie especially - are more inside forwards, not the type that will get to the byline and deliver a cross.  In those cases, Fletcher is the best option because he can be a wall for someone like Ritchie to play off.  Even Anya, who could easily get to the byline, is his delivery even that good?  He seems to be the type to want to get into the box himself as well (or is it just that he's so quick he has no option?)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against trying something new.  If it makes us better, absolutely.  But I'm just not convinced there is a better way for us to play.  Not to say what we do now is perfect, it obviously isn't, but even then it can still be the "best" relatively.  The attitude seems to be that if we change the system from this "failed" one, everything will be fine.  Those that actually do put something else forward - which you've tried to do to your credit - there's big caveats to each one.  We either need a different kind of striker, or we need wingers we don't have, or we need better center backs, or we need fitter players. 

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The last one is probably the most transferable, but ironically it's also the one thing that i couldn't fault of the current bunch. Footballers now have to be super-fit, even more so when sorely limited. However, the fittest players i've seen in the Scotland team, in my life, would in no particular order be Kenny Miller, Christian Dailly and Tommy Boyd. All three, while unquestionably giving 100% both in ability and application, were rarely used correctly because of that very reason.

Had Miller a regular strike partner of note (mainly Stevie Crawford, yet was rarely paired with Thompson, McFadden, Naismith or Kris Boyd, and certainly never with anyone more recent), his harrying and carrying could have reaped more rewards. Similarly Dailly and Boyd, were shuttled about the team to plug gaps, yet we'd cry out for players of that versatility nowadays with the natural fitness needed all over the board.

We're not, in my opinion, a million miles away from accidentally stumbling across a solution. Belief goes a long way, especially given international football's short windows. Our players are absolutely stripped of any real confidence or self-belief until they either find a bit of form during the actual match, or somehow we hold on to anything we shitfest our way to. That needs to change, first and foremost.

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We're not, in my opinion, a million miles away from accidentally stumbling across a solution. Belief goes a long way, especially given international football's short windows. Our players are absolutely stripped of any real confidence or self-belief until they either find a bit of form during the actual match, or somehow we hold on to anything we shitfest our way to. That needs to change, first and foremost.

Which is the fault of the manager!

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  • 3 weeks later...

So many excuses for Strachan's failure flying around on here.

He is just as much to blame, if not more than the players.

Tactically he's utter crap. Always has been and always will be! What he is is a good man manager and will get his favourite players feeling great. Sadly some of his favourite players aren't good enough to be starting or getting a place in the squad. And he is loyal to some utter garbage! 

His squad choices have me scratching my head in a state of confusion most of the time. His tactics and team selections can be borderline mental! Ireland away was his fault, as they were there for the taking, but his selection was crazy. Georgia away was also shocking by him.

Scott Brown has been garbage for a while now, yet he refuses to drop him for a FAR better James McArthur.

He called an inured Charlie Mulgrew into the squad, totally wasting a spot in the 23 man squad just so Mulgrew could "be around the lads."

He gave more international caps to a totally brutal James Forrest, when Ross McCormack, Matt Phillips etc couldn't even get a look in.

He's got the best pool of players the national team has had in years, yet he gets it all wrong on most squad selections.

I will always support the team, and I hope Strachan succeeds this time around. But for me, the jury is still out. And quite rightly so.

4th in a group where all we had to do was finish 3rd is brutal.

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1 hour ago, Underpants Gnome said:

So many excuses for Strachan's failure flying around on here.

He is just as much to blame, if not more than the players.

Tactically he's utter crap. Always has been and always will be! What he is is a good man manager and will get his favourite players feeling great. Sadly some of his favourite players aren't good enough to be starting or getting a place in the squad. And he is loyal to some utter garbage! 

His squad choices have me scratching my head in a state of confusion most of the time. His tactics and team selections can be borderline mental! Ireland away was his fault, as they were there for the taking, but his selection was crazy. Georgia away was also shocking by him.

Scott Brown has been garbage for a while now, yet he refuses to drop him for a FAR better James McArthur.

He called an inured Charlie Mulgrew into the squad, totally wasting a spot in the 23 man squad just so Mulgrew could "be around the lads."

He gave more international caps to a totally brutal James Forrest, when Ross McCormack, Matt Phillips etc couldn't even get a look in.

He's got the best pool of players the national team has had in years, yet he gets it all wrong on most squad selections.

I will always support the team, and I hope Strachan succeeds this time around. But for me, the jury is still out. And quite rightly so.

4th in a group where all we had to do was finish 3rd is brutal.

yet after all that, some would say his tactics are spot on as we dont have the players to play anything else (see the jordan rhodes over steven fletcher debate) and that the current squad is the best we have and there is no point in trying to bring anyone else in because they clearly arent good enough (see the ryan gauld thread) and that we were only one win away from the playoffs and had the germans done their job that win wouldnt have been required (this i agree on tbh, fucking german tits)

fact is strachan is only pissing with the cock he is left with, his one failure is the failure to drop shite and try the unknown, but damned if he do damned if he dont going by the split in the fanbase about trying out new things and new people

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1 hour ago, Underpants Gnome said:

So many excuses for Strachan's failure flying around on here.

He is just as much to blame, if not more than the players.

Tactically he's utter crap. Always has been and always will be! What he is is a good man manager and will get his favourite players feeling great. Sadly some of his favourite players aren't good enough to be starting or getting a place in the squad. And he is loyal to some utter garbage! 

His squad choices have me scratching my head in a state of confusion most of the time. His tactics and team selections can be borderline mental! Ireland away was his fault, as they were there for the taking, but his selection was crazy. Georgia away was also shocking by him.

Scott Brown has been garbage for a while now, yet he refuses to drop him for a FAR better James McArthur.

He called an inured Charlie Mulgrew into the squad, totally wasting a spot in the 23 man squad just so Mulgrew could "be around the lads."

He gave more international caps to a totally brutal James Forrest, when Ross McCormack, Matt Phillips etc couldn't even get a look in.

He's got the best pool of players the national team has had in years, yet he gets it all wrong on most squad selections.

I will always support the team, and I hope Strachan succeeds this time around. But for me, the jury is still out. And quite rightly so.

4th in a group where all we had to do was finish 3rd is brutal.

100% Spot On. Best post ive seen in ages on here.

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On 04/07/2016 at 16:24, forameus said:

 

Get where you're coming from, but I think that's a failing of the players rather than what they're being asked to do.  We don't really have midfielders that will play those through balls, which I think is why Griffiths will always look a bit out of his depth.  He'd be much better suited to that kind of play, but we don't really have that.  You mention having quick wide players, but that's more in our full-backs.  The players further forward - Ritchie especially - are more inside forwards, not the type that will get to the byline and deliver a cross.  In those cases, Fletcher is the best option because he can be a wall for someone like Ritchie to play off.  Even Anya, who could easily get to the byline, is his delivery even that good?  He seems to be the type to want to get into the box himself as well (or is it just that he's so quick he has no option?)

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not completely against trying something new.  If it makes us better, absolutely.  But I'm just not convinced there is a better way for us to play.  Not to say what we do now is perfect, it obviously isn't, but even then it can still be the "best" relatively.  The attitude seems to be that if we change the system from this "failed" one, everything will be fine.  Those that actually do put something else forward - which you've tried to do to your credit - there's big caveats to each one.  We either need a different kind of striker, or we need wingers we don't have, or we need better center backs, or we need fitter players. 

So your basically saying your happy strachan is giving us the best we can hope for.....not buying it at all. 

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So your basically saying your happy strachan is giving us the best we can hope for.....not buying it at all. 


Imagine Iceland Albania n northern Ireland fans must be devastated at not having Strachan as boss....luckily those nations have a vast number of players on epl la liga bundesliga etc....no chance you could qualify without that clearly (although according to some Strachan fanboys negative scotlamd fans stop you qualifying too)
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15 hours ago, kenny131 said:

So your basically saying your happy strachan is giving us the best we can hope for.....not buying it at all. 

Did you really have to go three weeks back to find something you disagreed with so much to bring up?  Your tinfoil hat getting a bit tight?

And if that's what you like to think I'm saying so you can dribble out your pish again, then fair enough.  Most sensible people would be able to read that post and think otherwise though.

 

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To be absolutely fair to you Foremeus, no you aren't claiming the current state of affairs to be anything like a success. However, some of the reasoning behind your outlook seems a little populist, and extremely damaging if it is the widely-held belief throughout the country. 

 

As an example, refusal to compare two forwards, based on the assumption they bring very different things to the one solitary role, and as a result our midfield's likely struggle to find a balance depending on who gets the nod, should mean we don't upset the applecart too much. That's what i'm getting from those posts, and my overriding concern is that the excuses are laid out already under those circumstances. 

 

Forward three months, and let's surmise Vladimir Weiss rips us to fucking shreds. Is the fact that Robertson being such an 'attacking full-back' going to seriously be used as a reason, 'just because' that's the way it is, despite the fact he will likely be up against him? 

 

I'd be less alarmed if your defence was of Strachan, than of his system; there's a lot of comfort in mediocrity being embraced here, and the manager may only be as variable as the system he plays; but if you asked him, or McGhee what the basic working of his formation ought to be, he'd be stumped. I could live with a failing system if the team functioned fully, and just wasn't good enough. But not this shite. 

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8 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

To be absolutely fair to you Foremeus, no you aren't claiming the current state of affairs to be anything like a success. However, some of the reasoning behind your outlook seems a little populist, and extremely damaging if it is the widely-held belief throughout the country. 

 

As an example, refusal to compare two forwards, based on the assumption they bring very different things to the one solitary role, and as a result our midfield's likely struggle to find a balance depending on who gets the nod, should mean we don't upset the applecart too much. That's what i'm getting from those posts, and my overriding concern is that the excuses are laid out already under those circumstances. 

 

Forward three months, and let's surmise Vladimir Weiss rips us to fucking shreds. Is the fact that Robertson being such an 'attacking full-back' going to seriously be used as a reason, 'just because' that's the way it is, despite the fact he will likely be up against him? 

 

I'd be less alarmed if your defence was of Strachan, than of his system; there's a lot of comfort in mediocrity being embraced here, and the manager may only be as variable as the system he plays; but if you asked him, or McGhee what the basic working of his formation ought to be, he'd be stumped. I could live with a failing system if the team functioned fully, and just wasn't good enough. But not this shite. 

This is the best post ive ever seen on P&B, no doubt you will get torn to shreds over it for having a different opinion.

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44 minutes ago, troopio said:

This is the best post ive ever seen on P&B, no doubt you will get torn to shreds over it for having a different opinion.

Even better than Dryhorce's Mubtumbo moment?

I agree though, good post.

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22 hours ago, forameus said:

Did you really have to go three weeks back to find something you disagreed with so much to bring up?  Your tinfoil hat getting a bit tight?

And if that's what you like to think I'm saying so you can dribble out your pish again, then fair enough.  Most sensible people would be able to read that post and think otherwise though.

 

Foruranus   all you do on here is shootdown everyone's posts about the manger or personnel he picks needing changed so yes I think your happy with the status quo or you just love a good troll

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9 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

To be absolutely fair to you Foremeus, no you aren't claiming the current state of affairs to be anything like a success. However, some of the reasoning behind your outlook seems a little populist, and extremely damaging if it is the widely-held belief throughout the country. 

 

As an example, refusal to compare two forwards, based on the assumption they bring very different things to the one solitary role, and as a result our midfield's likely struggle to find a balance depending on who gets the nod, should mean we don't upset the applecart too much. That's what i'm getting from those posts, and my overriding concern is that the excuses are laid out already under those circumstances. 

 

Forward three months, and let's surmise Vladimir Weiss rips us to fucking shreds. Is the fact that Robertson being such an 'attacking full-back' going to seriously be used as a reason, 'just because' that's the way it is, despite the fact he will likely be up against him? 

 

I'd be less alarmed if your defence was of Strachan, than of his system; there's a lot of comfort in mediocrity being embraced here, and the manager may only be as variable as the system he plays; but if you asked him, or McGhee what the basic working of his formation ought to be, he'd be stumped. I could live with a failing system if the team functioned fully, and just wasn't good enough. But not this shite. 

Well done for actually managing to reply to a point, rather than just fling shit like most do.

The first part about my opinion being "damaging"...come on.  Even if it was widely held - and I don't particularly care whether it is or not - the views of fans don't amount to a hill of beans.  They mean the square root of f**k all largely.  Booing and berating players every time they touch a ball is probably the most say a fan has in anything.  I have my opinion, I fully accept the right for everyone to put forward theirs (and also reserve the right to tell them it's pish and why, as you have the right to do the same for mine).  But they mean largely nothing at the end of the day.

I'm not really sure what you mean by your first point, the one about the two forwards.  I think you're saying - correct me if I'm wrong - that me saying two forwards are different means that I'm saying we should stick to one because it plays to our strengths.  If so, absolutely, and I stand by that.  If we're a great side with great players, we can probably afford to have several different approaches.  However, I think Griffiths and Rhodes especially need the sorts of players we don't really have in midfield.  We're blessed with a larger number of attacking midfielders who like to get into the box.  We don't have that creative midfielder who is going to play in the likes of Rhodes or Griffiths.  That is why I'll always say that at the moment Fletcher is our best option.  I'd love to have someone better, of course I would, but it is what it is.  I don't have any understanding why people would want to play someone else just for the sake of it when we're unlikely to be able to play to their strengths.

Second point, one about Weiss.  I can see where you're coming from, but again it comes down to what we have at our disposal.  Robertson is probably always going to be our best option all round, but do we have someone that has the defensive quality to be able to cope with Mad Vlad, while at the same time not leaving us camped in our own half with no width?  I'd love us to have a full-back who has the engine to attack while also able to get back and do his defensive job properly.  And playing devil's advocate, if we play someone whose game is defend first, attack later, and he still gets ripped apart, what then?  At least with Robertson, it's possible that Weiss will be given something else to think about, and perhaps get penned further back.  Putting in a pure full-back will just mean he can push further and further up.  Not where we want him to be playing.

You're starting to lose me at the third one.  Saying someone "embraces mediocrity" is a wonderful little soundbite, but it means absolutely nothing.  Me saying that this is the best system we can put together based on the players we have available is simply being realistic.  If someone comes along and outlines a system that would be better based on the current squad, brilliant.  But no-one has.  Those that have put things forward include suggesting we pap out every "old" player and replace them with players who have less quality.  That would be the very definition of accepting mediocrity.

I'm not a supporter of Strachan.  I'm not a supporter of Fletcher.  I'm not a supporter of any player, coach or manager currently involved.  I just support Scotland.  I want them to do well, and I'm pragmatic enough to 

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10 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Foruranus   all you do on here is shootdown everyone's posts about the manger or personnel he picks needing changed so yes I think your happy with the status quo or you just love a good troll

Go read Barbrady's post.  That's how to actually argue a point without resorting to smashing your face off the keyboard.  

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