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lionel hutz

By lionel hutz
in Scots in Europe

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Ludo*1
Ludo*1

You just come across like a dick tbh. If you've no interest, don't visit the thread. 

RossBFaeDundee
RossBFaeDundee

2 wins and a draw against tough opposition, another good night for Scottish football.

GordonS
GordonS

I've seen Steaua Bucharest and Red Star Belgrade win the European Cup. They'll never get close again. I don't imagine we'll see Brugge, Malmo, Partizan Belgrade or Panathanaikos in another final eithe

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ahemps

ahemps

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, AmericanFan said:

True. Have to stay top 15, but climbing into the top 10 would be fantastic.

This will be extremely unlikely due to how the points work. The more teams we have in the competition the better they need to do as all the points gained are then divided by that amount of teams. Last season Celtic and Rangers entering so early gives them a chance to get some easy points in the bag and the overall total by the Scotland teams was divided by 4 (the teams qualified). The higher we are placed and having less qualifying rounds to get 'easier' points also means the total is then divided by the 5 teams we have competing.

I felt last year was an exceptional year. Rangers and Celtic beat a Lazio and a Porto every so often but I would be surprised if that became a regular thing which it would need to if we were to climb into the top 10.

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d31

d31

Posted
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4 minutes ago, ahemps said:

This will be extremely unlikely due to how the points work. The more teams we have in the competition the better they need to do as all the points gained are then divided by that amount of teams. Last season Celtic and Rangers entering so early gives them a chance to get some easy points in the bag and the overall total by the Scotland teams was divided by 4 (the teams qualified). The higher we are placed and having less qualifying rounds to get 'easier' points also means the total is then divided by the 5 teams we have competing.

I felt last year was an exceptional year. Rangers and Celtic beat a Lazio and a Porto every so often but I would be surprised if that became a regular thing which it would need to if we were to climb into the top 10.

I agree but I do think we have teams, I would certainly say Aberdeen, who would be ready to pounce if qualifying became more favourable. If the Dons could be getting that third space this season and going straight to the playoff round (tbc) then we've proven in our history we can give anyone a game in a one off situation, home or away.

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FairWeatherFan

FairWeatherFan

Posted
Posted

Has anyone seen it confirmed that the Europa League and Conference League will have the same accrual of coefficient points? As in no additional bonus points getting dished out to the Europa in the same way that the Champions League does.

As long as the Europa and Conference League are treated the same, little changes. Celtic and Rangers will have it easier getting some level of Group Stage football. Everyone else will struggle to win more than two rounds of qualifying.

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FairWeatherFan

FairWeatherFan

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

But then you'd be missing out on easy points from the minnows in Q1 and Q2. It's a tricky balancing act.

Everyone else is for the most part in the same boat. If i'm reading it right outside of the Champions League a country has to be 30th or higher to start in the 1st Qualifying Round of the Conference League.

The 13th-26th bracket Scotland has been at are either going to have 4 teams one in CL and the other three starting Conf Q2. Or 5 teams with the extra team starting in either the CL or EL.

With the same starting point in qualifiers for the most part, the advantage is in the easier path to Group Stage football. Which would also help to keep Scottish teams seeded for Q2 of the Conference League.

Somebody from Kassiea's forum has done a mock up of how the Conference League qualifiers would look if the higher seeds win out.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=4FE4712A1E3EA4FA!293&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!ADkGldrPjJ1UdUc

While there are winnable ties in the Q2 if unseeded. Most clubs would prefer their chances as the seeded team.

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ahemps

ahemps

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As long as the Europa and Conference League are treated the same, little changes. Celtic and Rangers will have it easier getting some level of Group Stage football. Everyone else will struggle to win more than two rounds of qualifying.

I don't think it will be that much easier for the 2nd placed team to get to the group stage of the Europa in future though. The Europa league is downsizing so instead of 48 teams it will now be 32 so actually qualifying for that might be more difficult.

It probably will almost guarantee we have a team in the conference groups though.

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FairWeatherFan

FairWeatherFan

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I don't think it will be that much easier for the 2nd placed team to get to the group stage of the Europa in future though. The Europa league is downsizing so instead of 48 teams it will now be 32 so actually qualifying for that might be more difficult.

It probably will almost guarantee we have a team in the conference groups though.

Its not about getting to the Europa League group stage. Just any group stage. That's where the majority of points can get picked up.

I believe with finishing 13th last year in the country rankings and no Conference League winner. It will mean that the 2020-21 Scottish Cup winner will enter the 2021-22 Europa League at the play-off round. Lose that and they're automatically in the Conference League group stage.

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d31

d31

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Its not about getting to the Europa League group stage. Just any group stage. That's where the majority of points can get picked up.

I believe with finishing 13th last year in the country rankings and no Conference League winner. It will mean that the 2020-21 Scottish Cup winner will enter the 2021-22 Europa League at the play-off round. Lose that and they're automatically in the Conference League group stage.

That's a huge prize for the cup winner (or 3rd place if a top 3 team wins the cup).

 

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FairWeatherFan

FairWeatherFan

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, d31 said:

That's a huge prize for the cup winner (or 3rd place if a top 3 team wins the cup).

 

Got things mixed up in my head that it would be 2nd place/SC. Forgetting of course 2nd place would be in the CL.

So Top 15 means 2x CL, 1x EL, 2x ECL. With 13th or higher being a good chance to give 3rd/SC winner a guaranteed ECL group stage entry by dropping from the EL qualifiers.

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d31

d31

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Got things mixed up in my head that it would be 2nd place/SC. Forgetting of course 2nd place would be in the CL.

So Top 15 means 2x CL, 1x EL, 2x ECL. With 13th or higher being a good chance to give 3rd/SC winner a guaranteed ECL group stage entry by dropping from the EL qualifiers.

It really makes a huge difference between finishing 2nd, 3rd and 4th (in the event top 3 win the cup) which we've not really had in 7-8 years.

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10menwent2mow

10menwent2mow

Posted
Posted
Got things mixed up in my head that it would be 2nd place/SC. Forgetting of course 2nd place would be in the CL.
So Top 15 means 2x CL, 1x EL, 2x ECL. With 13th or higher being a good chance to give 3rd/SC winner a guaranteed ECL group stage entry by dropping from the EL qualifiers.
Current entry points before any chance of getting bumped up by Champions League winner already qualified or Europa League winners already qualified for next season would be.

League Winners - Champions League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties.
2 x Win = CL Groups
1 x Win = EL Groups
0 x Win = ECL groups

League runners up - CL non champions path Q2 - guaranteed 3 ties
3 x Win = CL groups
2 x Win = EL Groups
1 x Win = ECL groups
0 x Win = Oooooooot

Scottish Cup Winners / 3rd in League - Europa League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties
2 x Win - EL Groups
1 x Win - ECL Groups
0 x Win - Ooooooooot

3rd/4th in league or 4th/5th in league - Conference League Q2 - No second chances, 3 wins to make Conference league groups.

I think with seeding it's still going to be tougher than we think to make groups. If we put this seasons teams into next seasons competitions, I think Motherwell would have to beat two seeded teams to make EL groups, I don't think there's even a guarantee they'd be seeded in the ECL playoff if they dropped down.

Aberdeen/Livi would probably be seeded in ECL Q2, possibly Q3, but probably not the PO.
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FairWeatherFan

FairWeatherFan

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, 10menwent2mow said:

Current entry points before any chance of getting bumped up by Champions League winner already qualified or Europa League winners already qualified for next season would be.

League Winners - Champions League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties.
2 x Win = CL Groups
1 x Win = EL Groups
0 x Win = ECL groups

League runners up - CL non champions path Q2 - guaranteed 3 ties
3 x Win = CL groups
2 x Win = EL Groups
1 x Win = ECL groups
0 x Win = Oooooooot

Scottish Cup Winners / 3rd in League - Europa League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties
2 x Win - EL Groups
1 x Win - ECL Groups
0 x Win - Ooooooooot

3rd/4th in league or 4th/5th in league - Conference League Q2 - No second chances, 3 wins to make Conference league groups.

I think with seeding it's still going to be tougher than we think to make groups. If we put this seasons teams into next seasons competitions, I think Motherwell would have to beat two seeded teams to make EL groups, I don't think there's even a guarantee they'd be seeded in the ECL playoff if they dropped down.

Aberdeen/Livi would probably be seeded in ECL Q2, possibly Q3, but probably not the PO.

How they handle the draws will impact things as well. The last few years they've drawn the next round before the current one has completed. That's seen unseeded teams take on the higher seeding.

If that stays in place then the SC winner/3rd placed could take on seeding of their ELQ3 opponenet for the ECL playoff. Since ELQ3 is 3x Cup Winners/3rd place teams and 3x losers from the CL league path they'd likely be higher seeds than whoever Scotland produces for the spot. It'd likely be a very small advantage if it happened by that point though.

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AmericanFan

AmericanFan

Posted
Posted
On 01/09/2020 at 03:44, 10menwent2mow said:

Current entry points before any chance of getting bumped up by Champions League winner already qualified or Europa League winners already qualified for next season would be.

League Winners - Champions League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties.
2 x Win = CL Groups
1 x Win = EL Groups
0 x Win = ECL groups

League runners up - CL non champions path Q2 - guaranteed 3 ties
3 x Win = CL groups
2 x Win = EL Groups
1 x Win = ECL groups
0 x Win = Oooooooot

Scottish Cup Winners / 3rd in League - Europa League Q3 - Guaranteed 2 ties
2 x Win - EL Groups
1 x Win - ECL Groups
0 x Win - Ooooooooot

3rd/4th in league or 4th/5th in league - Conference League Q2 - No second chances, 3 wins to make Conference league groups.

I think with seeding it's still going to be tougher than we think to make groups. If we put this seasons teams into next seasons competitions, I think Motherwell would have to beat two seeded teams to make EL groups, I don't think there's even a guarantee they'd be seeded in the ECL playoff if they dropped down.

Aberdeen/Livi would probably be seeded in ECL Q2, possibly Q3, but probably not the PO.

Appreciate you putting that all together.

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