Coefficientwatch

[Ross.]

Israel are in with a great chance of moving up a few places and overtaking us in the process. All comes down to the play off tie between Celtic and Hapoel.

[Dunty]

New rules are a disgrace. Top four leagues to get 4 places, with the fourth place based on "European history", so basically if Leicester finish fourth and Liverpool fifth, Liverpool will take the Champions League spot.

And, none of them will have to go through the play-offs.

God knows where that leaves Scotland.

 

http://www.unilad.co.uk/sport/champions-league-revamp-plans-revealed-as-premier-league-set-to-benefit/

 

[craigkillie]

These are not "new rules".  They are proposals which may or may not get voted through.

[sjc]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

These are not "new rules".  They are proposals which may or may not get voted through.

Am I right in saying that these proposals only got this far due to the Milan Clubs struggles to qualify in recent years?

Do you think if these proposals are not voted through that we'll see the breakaway of a European or even World Super League? With the amount of foreign owners at the Worlds top Clubs there can't be much domestic National affinity in those boardrooms.

[craigkillie]

I'm not really sure that these Super League proposals really suit the proper big teams (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern), who would lose a lot of the financial advantage which they currently hold over their rivals.  These three reach the semis of the current Champions League every year, and they might be worried about a Super League putting the likes of Porto, Lyon and Juventus on the same sort of financial footing as them.

I reckon, as usual, the countries will all agree to some sort of compromise, which might look something like the proposal above, but probably toned down a little to give the smaller nations something to aspire to.

[sjc]

23 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I'm not really sure that these Super League proposals really suit the proper big teams (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern), who would lose a lot of the financial advantage which they currently hold over their rivals.  These three reach the semis of the current Champions League every year, and they might be worried about a Super League putting the likes of Porto, Lyon and Juventus on the same sort of financial footing as them.

I reckon, as usual, the countries will all agree to some sort of compromise, which might look something like the proposal above, but probably toned down a little to give the smaller nations something to aspire to.

I tend to agree that a Super League is still a bit down the road yet and that a comprimise of giving the Big Club yet more money will be reached, but how much more money can those 3 Clubs you mentioned extract domestically? Especially the Spanish duo who are under pressure to switch to an evenly spread TV deal as opposed to the individual rights they currently have* Would SKY not offer sums far exceeding that of the EPL deal if they had the top 12 in the World? I bet they'd even have a split if that was the case!

*may already have switched to a shared TV deal.....can't remember!

When I think of SKY football on TV I always think of this:

Imagine how much more they could crank up the razmataz for the typical armchair supporter for a Euro Superleague?

Edited August 11, 2016 by sjc

[wastecoatwilly]

why don't you just simplify the co-efficient system,if scottish teams win 16 games a season in europe for three season we will get rid of these qualifying games,scottish football needs to have a good hard look at how to improve your european form or the bad results will keep coming,

[Monkey Tennis]

I'm actually at the stage now where I wouldn't mind the creation of a super league that the biggest clubs were invited to join.

It would end the pretence that we're all invited to some European party if only we can be good enough.  It would at least admit that this no longer has anything at all to do with sport.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Monkey Tennis

[Mordecai]

11 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

why don't you just simplify the co-efficient system,if scottish teams win 16 games a season in europe for three season we will get rid of these qualifying games,scottish football needs to have a good hard look at how to improve your european form or the bad results will keep coming,

 

At what stage do these wins need to come? Bearing in mind for group stage wins double the amount of points are awarded. I've went back to the 02-03 season and there's not a single campaign where Scottish teams have won 16 games in Europe, nevermind for 3 seasons in a row. The most amount of games we've won in this period was in the 03-04 season where 14 games were won (6 were drawn) - we got 7.375 points that season. The only one that probably surpasses that would be the 07-08 season where 11 games were won and 14 were drawn (we got 10.25 points).

 

I suppose you're not wrong though...if we consistently won 16 games in European football every season then there would be fewer qualifiers for Scottish clubs, but we don't need to be quite as successful as that.

[wastecoatwilly]

2 minutes ago, Mordecai said:

 

At what stage do these wins need to come? Bearing in mind for group stage wins double the amount of points are awarded. I've went back to the 02-03 season and there's not a single campaign where Scottish teams have won 16 games in Europe, nevermind for 3 seasons in a row. The most amount of games we've won in this period was in the 03-04 season where 14 games were won (6 were drawn) - we got 7.375 points that season. The only one that probably surpasses that would be the 07-08 season where 11 games were won and 14 were drawn (we got 10.25 points).

 

I suppose you're not wrong though...if we consistently won 16 games in European football every season then there would be fewer qualifiers for Scottish clubs, but we don't need to be quite as successful as that.

we both understand the co-efficient system well,16 games in the qualifiers or in proper compo it's all good,even drawing games is good,my point is simple four teams go into europe each team winning 4 games that shouldn't be a tough ask,also we know the bonus points for getting to the group stage so that should be enough to get rid of these qualifiers,we are only 5 or 6 points off getting to 15th for me the teams in Scotland are underachieving.

[The OP]

Hopefully the gratitude for another Celtic win isn't too effusive. We don't boost the coefficient for thank yous, we just do it because it's the right thing to do.

[lionel hutz]

1 hour ago, The OP said:

Hopefully the gratitude for another Celtic win isn't too effusive. We don't boost the coefficient for thank yous, we just do it because it's the right thing to do.

Dinnae talk pish.

Celtic win games in Europe for prestige and (more importantly) financial reasons. Boosting the coefficient is a by-product of that.

[Dons_1988]

Dinnae talk pish.

Celtic win games in Europe for prestige and (more importantly) financial reasons. Boosting the coefficient is a by-product of that.

Dinna bite min he's clearly got the rod out

[Dons_1988]

I'm actually at the stage now where I wouldn't mind the creation of a super league that the biggest clubs were invited to join.

It would end the pretence that we're all invited to some European party if only we can be good enough.  It would at least admit that this no longer has anything at all to do with sport.

Not quite at that stage yet but agree with the sentiment.

UEFA has made it absolutely clear what they want their competitions to look like and it ain't with Aberdeen in it

[Mordecai]

10 hours ago, The OP said:

Hopefully the gratitude for another Celtic win isn't too effusive. We don't boost the coefficient for thank yous, we just do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

The thanks will arrive when Celtic beat a team that are seeded higher than them, that's what's needed to make any progress. At the moment Celtic have achieved the bare minimum that's expected. In terms of club coefficient, Hapoel Be'er Sheva are one place above St Johnstone (i.e. 206th); Celtic are currently 45th.

[The OP]

15 minutes ago, Mordecai said:

 

The thanks will arrive when Celtic beat a team that are seeded higher than them, that's what's needed to make any progress. At the moment Celtic have achieved the bare minimum that's expected. In terms of club coefficient, Hapoel Be'er Sheva are one place above St Johnstone (i.e. 206th); Celtic are currently 45th.

Specious reasoning. Celtic are 45th because they selflessly do their damndest to boost Scotland's coefficient. Our glorious 45th best team in Europe ranking was not given to us in 1888.

[Mordecai]

5 minutes ago, The OP said:

Specious reasoning. Celtic are 45th because they selflessly do their damndest to boost Scotland's coefficient. Our glorious 45th best team in Europe ranking was not given to us in 1888.

Unless Celtic have a very successful season in Europe then there's a good chance that they'll be dropping down the UEFA club coefficient quite a bit after this season. The 12/13 season is by far the highest contributor to their coefficient (16.860 points) and that's about to drop off - the next highest is the 14/15 season with 7.8 points. At the moment Celtic are 45th in spite of their obvious failings from previous seasons, I hope that they do well this season in order to maintain some sort of stability which may give them a foothold to rise further and to reap the benefits of doing so (perhaps moving to pot 3 for group stage draws). However, there's still a lot of work to be done and Celtic need to punch above their weight to do so - I wish you the best of luck in that. At the moment Celtic have 2.525 points this season for their club coefficient, I'm not sure how much they would gain if/when they qualify for the CL group stage, perhaps @Marr1 knows?

 

In terms of Scotland's current coefficient and looking over our shoulder at those behind us, beating an Israeli team has done us a favour. At the moment Israel have 3 of their 4 teams left in European competition and from that outset could feasibly overtake Scotland in the rankings (1.175 points behind us after last night). I think that outset is specious (good lexical choice, I'm having that) though, Israel are likely to lose one team in Hapoel Be'er Sheva to the EL group stage and Beitar Jerusalem lost 2-1 at home to St Etienne last night in the EL playoff, so are likely to be crashing out altogether. Maccabi Tel Aviv also have a tricky tie against Hadjuk Split coming up this evening. If they do drop to just one team left in Europe then I'd be confident of us staying ahead of them, particularly with the bonus point that we're likely to gain if Celtic qualify for the CL.

[Ross.]

Pretty sure Celtic will receive a 4 point bonus if they finish the job next week and qualify. I recall reading that the Scottish coefficient will receive a 1 point boost based on the fact they divide the club bonus by the number of participating clubs from any country.

ETA: Looking at: http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2017.html

the clubs who have gone straight in already have their 4 point bonus showing.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Ross.

[lionel hutz]

1 hour ago, Ross. said:

Pretty sure Celtic will receive a 4 point bonus if they finish the job next week and qualify. I recall reading that the Scottish coefficient will receive a 1 point boost based on the fact they divide the club bonus by the number of participating clubs from any country.

ETA: Looking at: http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/tcoef2017.html

the clubs who have gone straight in already have their 4 point bonus showing.

Correctumundo!

The next update will be after tonights matches. 

[Dons_1988]

Specious reasoning. Celtic are 45th because they selflessly do their damndest to boost Scotland's coefficient. Our glorious 45th best team in Europe ranking was not given to us in 1888.

Trying very hard