Coefficientwatch

[SlipperyP]

On 12/08/2021 at 01:47, HibeeJibee said:

This might be a query for @craigkillie.

I know it's perhaps unlikely both Aberdeen and Hibs will progress tomorrow... but if they did... would next Thursday be the first time 5 clubs have played in Europe on the same night? (Not checked draw so might be following Thursday if any city clashes/etc.).

I think 4 has happened a few times recently. Granted back in the day most games were played on Wednesday nights - but historically we hadn't even had 5 clubs in Europe too often.

Celtic and Rangers are bought home in the first leg.  Celtic will play on Wed.

[Bogbrush1903]

On 11/08/2021 at 20:48, HibeeJibee said:

Thanks.

Surprising.

Always on Wednesdays?

Well it wasn't surprising if you remember the 1980s, there was always one club in the European Cup, one in the Cup Winners Cup and three in the UEFA Cup. As all competitions seemed to be played on the same night (Wednesday, unless there was a specific need to play a match on another evening).

However, I'm surprised as @craigkillie list contains 1st leg and 2nd leg matches. Therefore, it seems on only four occasions 1968/69, 1973/74, 1986/87 and 1987/88 were both legs for each of the five all played on the same night?

Also, it seems from that list dates, that five Scottish teams have never progressed through their round on the same season? Is that correct?

Presently, the fact that teams get second and third chances makes a mockery of the tournaments. Thankfully Aberdeen have never been knocked out and remained in Europe but it seems only a matter of time before it happens now if we qualify for the Europa League.

The situation reminds me of schools or youth service football in days of your where it was called the consolation cup. In Aberdeen schools football during the 1980s, you had the Willoughby Cup (named after ex-Don Alex Willoughby I think) and the Denis Law Cup (named after some guy that played his football in England). I believe the latter was the consolation cup that losers from the former dropped into.

[Monkey Tennis]

44 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Well it wasn't surprising if you remember the 1980s, there was always one club in the European Cup, one in the Cup Winners Cup and three in the UEFA Cup. As all competitions seemed to be played on the same night (Wednesday, unless there was a specific need to play a match on another evening).

 

Presently, the fact that teams get second and third chances makes a mockery of the tournaments. Thankfully Aberdeen have never been knocked out and remained in Europe but it seems only a matter of time before it happens now if we qualify for the Europa League.

The situation reminds me of schools or youth service football in days of your where it was called the consolation cup. In Aberdeen schools football during the 1980s, you had the Willoughby Cup (named after ex-Don Alex Willoughby I think) and the Denis Law Cup (named after some guy that played his football in England). I believe the latter was the consolation cup that losers from the former dropped into.

Totally agree - it is an embarrassing farce.

Remember in May when that stupid jamboree league for the biggest clubs was preparing to launch.  The idea collapsed very quickly and apparently the thing that was a step too far was that with no relegation, failure on the field couldn't carry appropriate penalties.

All these safety net competitions now achieve the same thing, but mindless football fans don't just accept it - they embrace it.

[Monkey Tennis]

11 hours ago, Ginaro said:

I'm thinking about it - we're up to 8th, a smidgen ahead of Russia. They lost two of their ECL clubs but will have 1xCL and 2xEL GS.

Important we have at least two GS teams to have a chance of staying ahead 

Which, in turn, begs the question:  Why is it important that we stay ahead of Russia?

[wastecoatwilly]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Which, in turn, begs the question:  Why is it important that we stay ahead of Russia?

8th out of 55 countries is the highest Scotland have been in 30 years monkey not bad for a wee country.

[RedLichtie86]

Which, in turn, begs the question:  Why is it important that we stay ahead of Russia?

Well it looks hood that a small country can finish above bigger nations. But lets have a look to see what 8th place affords us.

If we manage to finish 8th this year then Scotland will have 5 teams in Europe for the 23/24 season.

1. 22/23 Champions will go into CL group stages

2. 2nd would enter the CL 3rd Qualifying round meaning should they fail to get through they will drop into the Europa League groups.

3. Cup Winner/3rd place would enter the Playoff Round of the Europa League and drop into Conference League groups if they fail to get through.

4. 3rd/4th would enter the Conference League at the 3rd Qualifying round.

5. 4th/5th would enter the 2nd Qualifying round.

1. Would be looking at a minimum of €15.25M prize money.

2. Would be looking at a minimum of €3.65M prize money.

3. Would be looking at a minimum of €2.94M prize money.

4. Would be looking at a minimum of €550k prize money.

5. Would be looking at a minimum of €350k prize money.


Not to mention that a draw and win on the groups will earn more money for the 3 clubs involved in the group stages. This varies between the 3 competitions. 3 home games for more income. Sponsorship, advertising, TV income etc. It all adds up.

For the team that wins the cup/finishes 3rd its very lucrative. Even 2nd place team has the safety net of Europa League groups to fall back on but with a smaller prize pot.

Say if it had been this season that St Johnstone were in the Playoffs rather than the 3rd Qual rounds. Knowing they would have a minimum of €2.94M prize money on its way would be interesting.

Would they invest in the squad and bring better players in or hold onto what they have? Improvements to stadium and training facilities, grassroots, youth team etc.

The 21/22 and 22/23 cups are going to be a very large carrot for clubs knowing that if they win they will have European football until XMas. And Scotland will have 3 teams minimum until Xmas for at least 2 seasons and possibly 1 or 2 after that.

Now i know you get pissy about the teams making the CL groups and making huge sums. But we will have at least 1 team outside the OF (lets assume one of them win the league) earning a large chunk of cash and using it to improve them, that will be a good thing.

Giving other teams a shorter route to thw groups will aid them also. They probably wont but anything is possible and if they can get to the groups thats another team earning a large chunk of cash.

And remember these clubs will need to have enough homegrown players in their squads. Might see the odd transfer of players for good money between clubs rather than an influx of foreign players to meet the Homegrown criteria.

End of the day we want to stay as high up the coefficient table as we can for as long as we can.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, RedLichtie86 said:

Well it looks hood that a small country can finish above bigger nations. But lets have a look to see what 8th place affords us.

If we manage to finish 8th this year then Scotland will have 5 teams in Europe for the 23/24 season.

1. 22/23 Champions will go into CL group stages

2. 2nd would enter the CL 3rd Qualifying round meaning should they fail to get through they will drop into the Europa League groups.

3. Cup Winner/3rd place would enter the Playoff Round of the Europa League and drop into Conference League groups if they fail to get through.

4. 3rd/4th would enter the Conference League at the 3rd Qualifying round.

5. 4th/5th would enter the 2nd Qualifying round.

1. Would be looking at a minimum of €15.25M prize money.

2. Would be looking at a minimum of €3.65M prize money.

3. Would be looking at a minimum of €2.94M prize money.

4. Would be looking at a minimum of €550k prize money.

5. Would be looking at a minimum of €350k prize money.


Not to mention that a draw and win on the groups will earn more money for the 3 clubs involved in the group stages. This varies between the 3 competitions. 3 home games for more income. Sponsorship, advertising, TV income etc. It all adds up.

For the team that wins the cup/finishes 3rd its very lucrative. Even 2nd place team has the safety net of Europa League groups to fall back on but with a smaller prize pot.

Say if it had been this season that St Johnstone were in the Playoffs rather than the 3rd Qual rounds. Knowing they would have a minimum of €2.94M prize money on its way would be interesting.

Would they invest in the squad and bring better players in or hold onto what they have? Improvements to stadium and training facilities, grassroots, youth team etc.

The 21/22 and 22/23 cups are going to be a very large carrot for clubs knowing that if they win they will have European football until XMas. And Scotland will have 3 teams minimum until Xmas for at least 2 seasons and possibly 1 or 2 after that.

Now i know you get pissy about the teams making the CL groups and making huge sums. But we will have at least 1 team outside the OF (lets assume one of them win the league) earning a large chunk of cash and using it to improve them, that will be a good thing.

Giving other teams a shorter route to thw groups will aid them also. They probably wont but anything is possible and if they can get to the groups thats another team earning a large chunk of cash.

And remember these clubs will need to have enough homegrown players in their squads. Might see the odd transfer of players for good money between clubs rather than an influx of foreign players to meet the Homegrown criteria.

End of the day we want to stay as high up the coefficient table as we can for as long as we can.

Thank you for such detail Lichtie - genuinely.

I could not have made the point of why an improved coefficient is actually a bad thing, anything like as well.

Points 1 and 2 in particular, have me cheering on those Russians.

[wastecoatwilly]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Thank you for such detail Lichtie - genuinely.

I could not have made the point of why an improved coefficient is actually a bad thing, anything like as well.

Points 1 and 2 in particular, have me cheering on those Russians.

You want the Russians to do better than the Scots teams Monkey you truly need a check up  from the neck up.

[Monkey Tennis]

13 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

You want the Russians to do better than the Scots teams Monkey you truly need a check up  from the neck up.

Yes, you see I don't want anyone's domestic game buggered up, but if I'm honest, I just don't care as much about Russian football, as I do Scottish.

I'm probably being selfish, so I apologise for that.  

If something can protect our game though, I'm all for it.

 

[DiegoDiego]

you truly need a check up  from the neck up.

Tim Westwood in the house!

[wastecoatwilly]

24 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, you see I don't want anyone's domestic game buggered up, but if I'm honest, I just don't care as much about Russian football, as I do Scottish.

I'm probably being selfish, so I apologise for that.  

If something can protect our game though, I'm all for it.

 

The top 5 or 6 leagues will always be at the top of the coefficient table that will never change,the Scots teams getting to 8th is probably the best we can ever hope for.
As a footballing nation we are competing against other countries you really need to see or have a boarder view and accept this capitalist model.  

[RedLichtie86]

The top 5 or 6 leagues will always be at the top of the coefficient table that will never change,the Scots teams getting to 8th is probably the best we can ever hope for.
As a footballing nation we are competing against other countries you really need to see or have a boarder view and accept this capitalist model.  

We are not too far of 7th.

Only 2 points behind.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

 you really need to see or have a boarder view and accept this capitalist model.  

I can hear Brother Walfrid birling from here.

[Binos]

13 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

The top 5 or 6 leagues will always be at the top of the coefficient table that will never change,the Scots teams getting to 8th is probably the best we can ever hope for.
As a footballing nation we are competing against other countries you really need to see or have a boarder view and accept this capitalist model.  

This week has brought home how much our sides are still cannon fodder 

[wastecoatwilly]

2 hours ago, Binos said:

This week has brought home how much our sides are still cannon fodder 

Mince,there is only 9 countries left that still have all their teams still in Europe and 15 countries have already been eliminated.

[wastecoatwilly]

15 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I can hear Brother Walfrid birling from here.

I've said before Real Madrid won the first 5 European cups and can still win it,European football hasn't changed much in 80 years.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I've said before Real Madrid won the first 5 European cups and can still win it,European football hasn't changed much in 80 years.

Yes it wasn't relevant when you first said it either.  

Your timeline is also about 15 years out.

[wastecoatwilly]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes it wasn't relevant when you first said it either.  

Your timeline is also about 15 years out.

The top 5 countries have dominated the top prize since it started back in the 50's with a few exceptions.
 

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

The top 5 countries have dominated the top prize since it started back in the 50's with a few exceptions.
 

Who are the five?

You no longer get exceptions.

The mid 50s didn't happen 80 years ago.

[RussellAnderson]

I dont understand how someone can be so principled about this, one side or the other. Long ago I decided it was better for my blood pressure to simply enjoy the outcome of scots in europe, whatever it was. 

Old Firm b*****ds win - coefficient points, better for Aberdeen to qualify later, Scotland appearing a stronger league, able to sell our players or TV rights for a little bit more cash, distracts them from domestic cups. 

Old Firm b*****ds lose - funny, keeps money away from them, more likely to instigate some instability in their ranks, funny, means their supporters are less happy than they were, and its very very funny. 

UEFA and European competition is broken beyond repair yeah, so if Aberdeen get knocked out I can blame that! But if we get thru, its class! We have upset the odds in a system designed for us to fail!

Some folk need to lighten up. The co-efficient bean counters at least offer a valuable service for those that its relevant to. I thank them for it.