Coefficientwatch

[jamamafegan]

It is hugely concerning that the “diddy” Scottish sides can’t muster up a performance to get to the group stage. You have to wonder whether we will ever see the likes of Aberdeen, St Johnstone or any other non-OF side manage to make it. It’s a really sorry state of affairs.

LASK might have a bigger budget than us but they were certainly beatable. Our failure was our own doing, we weren’t exactly outclassed by a better side like we were vs Gala. It is a massive missed opportunity for St Johnstone.

Scottish teams just lack the bottle. The mentality is awful. Our football isn’t positive or technical enough. While it’s great to frustrate European teams with hoofball tactics, once they’ve figured you out you’re fucked unless you can switch things up a bit - which we seem to be incapable of doing. I don’t believe it’s just a budget thing. You’ve got teams like Dundalk in the League of Ireland qualifying for the Europa League not too long ago ffs. We can’t even get ourselves to the conference league.

[Ginaro]

29 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

It is hugely concerning that the “diddy” Scottish sides can’t muster up a performance to get to the group stage. You have to wonder whether we will ever see the likes of Aberdeen, St Johnstone or any other non-OF side manage to make it. It’s a really sorry state of affairs.

You’ve got teams like Dundalk in the League of Ireland qualifying for the Europa League not too long ago ffs. We can’t even get ourselves to the conference league.

You'll see it next season as the cup winner/3rd is guaranteed to drop into the ECL GS. 

Dundalk were champions so their route to the EL GS was different. Last season they lost in CL QR1, then beat the champions from Andorra, Moldova* and the Faroes to qualify. Previously they beat the champions from Iceland, Belarus (BATE), and then lost to Legia to drop into the EL GS.

*single tie on pens - good result as Sheriff have since got to the CL GS

[GordonS]

6 hours ago, Lex said:

Thank goodness for the old firm I guess. All three of our other teams out before the end of August, again.
Even a new competition that looked sure to give at least one of them group stage European nights till Christmas wasn’t enough help.

If you looked at the structure before the tournaments started you'd have seen that Scottish clubs were always odds against making the ECL. So instead of our usual standard being scrapping to make the play-off round of the EL, we're now scrapping to make the group stage of the ECL. 

4 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

It is hugely concerning that the “diddy” Scottish sides can’t muster up a performance to get to the group stage. You have to wonder whether we will ever see the likes of Aberdeen, St Johnstone or any other non-OF side manage to make it. It’s a really sorry state of affairs.

LASK might have a bigger budget than us but they were certainly beatable. Our failure was our own doing, we weren’t exactly outclassed by a better side like we were vs Gala. It is a massive missed opportunity for St Johnstone.

Scottish teams just lack the bottle. The mentality is awful. Our football isn’t positive or technical enough. While it’s great to frustrate European teams with hoofball tactics, once they’ve figured you out you’re fucked unless you can switch things up a bit - which we seem to be incapable of doing. I don’t believe it’s just a budget thing. You’ve got teams like Dundalk in the League of Ireland qualifying for the Europa League not too long ago ffs. We can’t even get ourselves to the conference league.

Scottish teams have plenty of bottle. More than most. What they lack is technique. We resort to hoofball because we lack the technique required to keep the ball under pressure. The reason our teams are continually papped out of Europe by clubs with lesser resources is because they bring through better players than we do. The best of them get sold on, and there's enough quality left over for their own club and league.

In wealthy countries they have serious and professional coaching with all the focus on technique; in poorer countries they still have half the boys in the country playing football in the street for hours every day. And there's us in the middle with the worst of both worlds.

It's easy to get distracted by the one-offs, like Dundalk. There will always be outliers. If we want clubs consistently competitive then we need to train our kids to a far, far higher standard. That means ditching 11-a-sides and competitive matches, scrapping leagues and cups, banning them from playing for more than one team, all the stuff they've been doing in other countries for 50 years now.

I've resigned myself to the reality that it's not going to happen in my lifetime, because we're a pretty stupid country. Instead of talking about how we can beat teams from countries with smaller football resources than us what we get is folk talking about targeting a coefficient of 26-point-whatever.

It's a shite state of affairs...

[ahemps]

4 hours ago, GordonS said:

If you looked at the structure before the tournaments started you'd have seen that Scottish clubs were always odds against making the ECL. So instead of our usual standard being scrapping to make the play-off round of the EL, we're now scrapping to make the group stage of the ECL. 

Scottish teams have plenty of bottle. More than most. What they lack is technique. We resort to hoofball because we lack the technique required to keep the ball under pressure. The reason our teams are continually papped out of Europe by clubs with lesser resources is because they bring through better players than we do. The best of them get sold on, and there's enough quality left over for their own club and league.

It's easy to get distracted by the one-offs, like Dundalk. There will always be outliers. If we want clubs consistently competitive then we need to train our kids to a far, far higher standard. That means ditching 11-a-sides and competitive matches, scrapping leagues and cups, banning them from playing for more than one team, all the stuff they've been doing in other countries for 50 years now.

Some very good points here.

I think we will see a non OF team in the groups in the next 10 years or so, most likely a Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen if they get a kind draw they may only need to win 1 tie to get there, that should not be outside the realms of possibilities.

4 hours ago, GordonS said:

In wealthy countries they have serious and professional coaching with all the focus on technique; in poorer countries they still have half the boys in the country playing football in the street for hours every day. And there's us in the middle with the worst of both worlds.

I've resigned myself to the reality that it's not going to happen in my lifetime, because we're a pretty stupid country. Instead of talking about how we can beat teams from countries with smaller football resources than us what we get is folk talking about targeting a coefficient of 26-point-whatever.

It's a shite state of affairs...

This is the main point though, we have no vision or direction with our football, very little has changed with our grassroots. I hear stories of Iceland investing in coaching and facilities, Belgium and Germany totally overhauled their systems after poor world cups. Germany are rethinking again even though for me all they have done is hit a bit of bad form but we don't do anything, the definition of insanity, try the same thing over and over and expect a different result. 

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, ahemps said:

I think we will see a non OF team in the groups in the next 10 years or so, most likely a Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen if they get a kind draw they may only need to win 1 tie to get there, that should not be outside the realms of possibilities.

As I said, we will see a non-OF team in the Conference League group stage next season, and will continue to do so without needing to qualify provided we stay in the top 12. Hopefully being pot 3 they would be able to win a game or two and make up for not being able to get points in qualifying rounds. 

[10menwent2mow]

16 hours ago, RedLichtie86 said:

To be fair St Johnstone have done as good as we can expect of them. No shame in them going out at this stage.

Aberdeen..... FFS. typical. Losing Andy C last week didnt help but should be doing much better.

Hibs. Were in it but once Darren McGregor decided to be a fud and get sent off they just went off a cliff.

Going to be tough for both Rangers and Celtic too as both look extremely weak in defence.

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion re Aberdeen. We have performed exactly to expectations again, we've never gone out of Europe in the last 8 years before we were seeded to and have performed above expectations on at least two occasions. 

Since returning to Europe under McInnes we've accumulated significantly more for the coefficient than all non OF teams put together and in 4 of those 8 seasons there have been two non OF teams in Europe. 

[Suspect Device]

Once we've stopped enjoying the bigot brothers defeats........

 

[Ginaro]

Russia have overtaken us for 9th, though Ukraine still 0.700 back in 11th. Serbia closing, now only 2.425 behind (5 wins) with both Red Star and Partizan winning all their games so far.

Still need to win 5 games to match the 16/17 total of 4.375 which dropped off this season. Only positive Celtic and Rangers can take are they've yet to play the pot 4 team in their group, the results of which will surely decide whether they can get 3rd and qualify for the Conference League knockouts as a bare minimum.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Ginaro

[Ginaro]

A good week for the coefficient. Two wins moves us up to 32.100 and back into 9th, a win ahead of Russia who scored zero. Ukraine in 10th scored a win, but we also increased our lead over those further behind. Looks like both OF teams can get two wins against the pot 4 teams to guarantee a Conference League knockout place.

The Dutch are long gone in 7th with their five teams, they'll be pushing for 5th if they keep that up, especially once their poor 17/18 score drops off next season.

8		Austria	9.750	6.200	5.800	6.700	5.600	34.050	4/ 5
9		Scotland	4.000	6.750	9.750	8.500	3.100	32.100	2/ 5
10		Russia	12.600	7.583	4.666	4.333	2.500	31.682	3/ 5
11		Ukraine	8.000	5.600	7.200	6.800	3.400	31.000	3/ 5
12		Serbia	6.375	6.000	6.000	5.500	5.250	29.125	2/ 4
13		Belgium	2.600	7.800	7.600	6.000	4.600	28.600	4/ 5

[ahemps]

Being in the CL is probably not a good thing for coefficient points for the nations ranked above 8th. I would imagine Zenit, Dynamo and Shaktar would all be collecting more points in the Europa and only Zenit are likely to get 3rd and stay in Europe after the group stages.

Would Celtic and Rangers finishing 3rd and getting into the conference gain them more points than finishing 2nd and playing a 3rd place team from the CL groups?

[Ginaro]

12 hours ago, ahemps said:

Being in the CL is probably not a good thing for coefficient points for the nations ranked above 8th. I would imagine Zenit, Dynamo and Shaktar would all be collecting more points in the Europa and only Zenit are likely to get 3rd and stay in Europe after the group stages.

Would Celtic and Rangers finishing 3rd and getting into the conference gain them more points than finishing 2nd and playing a 3rd place team from the CL groups?

There's no bonus points in the Conference until the semis/final (1 for each) so it's just match points against probably a weaker team, versus 2 bonus points for finishing runner-up and then 1 bonus for each subsequent KO round (and of course the extra match points for getting to 2nd).

Obviously this will chance but the current situation is: finish 3rd and play one of LASK, Partizan, Roma, Jablonec, Copenhagen, Vitesse, Qarabag or finished 2nd and play one of Bruges, Porto, Sporting, Inter, Barclona, Atalanta, Lille, Zenit.

[Ginaro]

8		Austria	9.750	6.200	5.800	6.700	6.400	34.850 +0.800	4/ 5
9		Scotland	4.000	6.750	9.750	8.500	3.700	32.700 +0.600	2/ 5
10		Russia	12.600	7.583	4.666	4.333	2.900	32.082 +0.400	3/ 5
11		Ukraine	8.000	5.600	7.200	6.800	3.800	31.400 +0.400	3/ 5
12		Serbia	6.375	6.000	6.000	5.500	5.500	29.375 +0.250	2/ 4
13		Belgium	2.600	7.800	7.600	6.000	5.200	29.200 +0.600	4/ 5

Another good week for the coefficient - increased the gap slightly on those behind. Celtic guaranteed another two games after Christmas and Rangers likely to have that as well. 

Unless Shakhtar pull off two CL wins and Kiev beat Benfica then Ukraine look like losing all three teams. Russia will likely have at least one team (EL).

[DMCs]

10 hours ago, Ginaro said:

8		Austria	9.750	6.200	5.800	6.700	6.400	34.850 +0.800	4/ 5
9		Scotland	4.000	6.750	9.750	8.500	3.700	32.700 +0.600	2/ 5
10		Russia	12.600	7.583	4.666	4.333	2.900	32.082 +0.400	3/ 5
11		Ukraine	8.000	5.600	7.200	6.800	3.800	31.400 +0.400	3/ 5
12		Serbia	6.375	6.000	6.000	5.500	5.500	29.375 +0.250	2/ 4
13		Belgium	2.600	7.800	7.600	6.000	5.200	29.200 +0.600	4/ 5

Another good week for the coefficient - increased the gap slightly on those behind. Celtic guaranteed another two games after Christmas and Rangers likely to have that as well. 

Unless Shakhtar pull off two CL wins and Kiev beat Benfica then Ukraine look like losing all three teams. Russia will likely have at least one team (EL).

Top 10 looks pretty secure then. Difference between 9th and 10th is the difference between 3 teams guaranteed in group stages and two teams.

Russia about to lose a 12.6 so if we can stay ahead of them this season we'll be in a good position.

[Buckets]

On 05/11/2021 at 08:25, DMCs said:

Top 10 looks pretty secure then. Difference between 9th and 10th is the difference between 3 teams guaranteed in group stages and two teams.

Russia about to lose a 12.6 so if we can stay ahead of them this season we'll be in a good position.

I think you only need to be top 12 to get a 3rd team in the groups. We are 11th for next season and 3rd place/Cup winner goes into the Europa play-off. 

[Ginaro]

5 minutes ago, Buckets said:

I think you only need to be top 12 to get a 3rd team in the groups. We are 11th for next season and 3rd place/Cup winner goes into the Europa play-off. 

You're confusing three teams and 3rd team  

12th means the Premiership runners-up are not guaranteed a ECL GS place - it would be lose in CL Q2 -> lose in EL Q3 -> ECL PO where they can still go out.

9th means they would start in CL Q3 so would drop into the EL PO where defeat still means ECL GS. 

Technically 10th or 11th would still be ok but that relies on the EL title holder spot being vacated (not as frequent as the CL TH).

[Bully Wee Villa]

Scotland being above Russia is quite impressive. 

[Ginaro]

9 hours ago, Small Bovine Maisonette said:

Scotland being above Russia is quite impressive. 

Helps when you've only had 4 teams to divide the points by instead of 5, but in the previous two seasons Russia have underperformed with their two CL teams finishing bottom of their groups and their one or two EL teams not progressing into the knockout stages either. Something we'll need to avoid next season.

[Buckets]

13 hours ago, Ginaro said:

You're confusing three teams and 3rd team  

12th means the Premiership runners-up are not guaranteed a ECL GS place - it would be lose in CL Q2 -> lose in EL Q3 -> ECL PO where they can still go out.

9th means they would start in CL Q3 so would drop into the EL PO where defeat still means ECL GS. 

Technically 10th or 11th would still be ok but that relies on the EL title holder spot being vacated (not as frequent as the CL TH).

Ah OK got it now thanks. You would imagine 95% of the time either Celtic or Rangers would make it to the groups anyway with that route so 12th is still a good and maybe more realistic target. 

[Monkey Tennis]

On 04/11/2021 at 22:13, Ginaro said:

Another good week for the coefficient - increased the gap slightly on those behind. Celtic guaranteed another two games after Christmas and Rangers likely to have that as well. 

Yes, our already most bloated clubs will have a chance to extend their profile and income yet further.

That's definitely worth mindlessly celebrating.

[RedLichtie86]

Yes, our already most bloated clubs will have a chance to extend their profile and income yet further.
That's definitely worth mindlessly celebrating.

Another week. More greetin'. Your tears are delicious