Coefficientwatch

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Buckets said:

Not got a clue what you're on about mate sorry  

I mean do they just want coefficient points for their own sake, rather than have any concern with what they result in?

[Buckets]

50 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I mean do they just want coefficient points for their own sake, rather than have any concern with what they result in?

 

I think the whole debate is a matter of opinion and depends on what you value. I'm not sure it's as clear between right and wrong as what you're suggesting. Getting into the group stages of Europe (yes you can say its a diddy tournament but its still games v Napoli, Tottenham, Feyenoord etc) is now a realistic target for Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs in the next couple of years. And for clubs like United, Dundee, Motherwell, Killie and even St Mirren it's not beyond the realms of possibility to one day get 3rd place and into the groups. Just because that doesn't interest you, it doesn't mean other people are wrong for getting excited about the prospect. 

I understand your argument that European football widens the financial gap between Celtic and Rangers and the rest but as the gap is already huge, a lot of people probably don't think that an extra 5 or 10 million will make much difference either way. 

That's not necessarily my opinion but I'm just saying a lot of people don't believe closing the gap to a significant degree is possible. Celtic and Rangers will finish 1st and 2nd anyway. Whether they finish 20 points or 30 points ahead isn't as important as group stage European football (and the money it brings) for a lot of people. 

Also from your point of view worrying about the coefficient isn't really worthwhile. Even if Celtic and Rangers started in the earliest qualifying round they are still favourites to get to the Champions League or Europa League groups so the round they enter in, isn't that important. 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Buckets

[RedLichtie86]

 
I think the whole debate is a matter of opinion and depends on what you value. I'm not sure it's as clear between right and wrong as what you're suggesting. Getting into the group stages of Europe (yes you can say its a diddy tournament but its still games v Napoli, Tottenham, Feyenoord etc) is now a realistic target for Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs in the next couple of years. And for clubs like United, Dundee, Motherwell, Killie and even St Mirren it's not beyond the realms of possibility to one day get 3rd place and into the groups. Just because that doesn't interest you, it doesn't mean other people are wrong for getting excited about the prospect. 
I understand your argument that European football widens the financial gap between Celtic and Rangers and the rest but as the gap is already huge, a lot of people probably don't think that an extra 5 or 10 million will make much difference either way. 
That's not necessarily my opinion but I'm just saying a lot of people don't believe closing the gap to a significant degree is possible. Celtic and Rangers will finish 1st and 2nd anyway. Whether they finish 20 points or 30 points ahead isn't as important as group stage European football for a lot of people. 
Also from your point of view worrying about the coefficient isn't really worthwhile. Even if Celtic and Rangers started in the earliest qualifying round they are still favourites to get to the Champions League or Europa League groups so the round they enter in, isn't that important. 
 

Exactly. worrying about how much the OF can make by reaching the CL groups is pointless. If Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs etc were to make it one year it wouldnt make a difference as the OF would still be strong. Though they might find a 3rd challenger using CL money to get stronger a challenge for a couple of years, in the long run it would be back to usual.

But if others can get to a Europa League group thanks to the much increased Coefficient then they can earn a decent amount. Not enough to challenge the OF directly but possibly give them a boost to keep players, spend on infastructure etc. Also the fans of these clubs can experience european games home and away.

It will be great to see 3 teams playing in the groups.
Would be brilliant if we managed 4 teams. It will be fantastic if we managed 5 teams.

We live in hope.

[Monkey Tennis]

12 minutes ago, Buckets said:

 

I think the whole debate is a matter of opinion and depends on what you value. I'm not sure it's as clear between right and wrong as what you're suggesting. Getting into the group stages of Europe (yes you can say its a diddy tournament but its still games v Napoli, Tottenham, Feyenoord etc) is now a realistic target for Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs in the next couple of years. And for clubs like United, Dundee, Motherwell, Killie and even St Mirren it's not beyond the realms of possibility to one day get 3rd place and into the groups. Just because that doesn't interest you, it doesn't mean other people are wrong for getting excited about the prospect. 

I understand your argument that European football widens the financial gap between Celtic and Rangers and the rest but as the gap is already huge, a lot of people probably don't think that an extra 5 or 10 million will make much difference either way. 

That's not necessarily my opinion but I'm just saying a lot of people don't believe closing the gap to a significant degree is possible. Celtic and Rangers will finish 1st and 2nd anyway. Whether they finish 20 points or 30 points ahead isn't as important as group stage European football for a lot of people. 

Also from your point of view worrying about the coefficient isn't really worthwhile. Even if Celtic and Rangers started in the earliest qualifying round they are still favourites to get to the Champions League or Europa League groups so the round they enter in, isn't that important. 

 

That's a largely fair post.

I still maintain that in our warped little football nation, the damage done by cementing the OF duopoly in perpetuity, far outstrips the value of a fleeting wee occasional bonus for a Hibs (something which is a longer shot anyway). 

I also think there's a real tendency on here to understate the role played by the b*****disation of European club tournaments over recent decades, in damaging our domestic football.

Maybe being old enough to remember when it was otherwise colours my perspective, but I don't think it weakens it.

[HibeeJibee]

9 hours ago, The_Judge said:

I noticed that a few of the teams knocked out in last nights CL qualifiers go straight into the EL groups e.g. FC Midtjylland, Genk, Sparta Prague, Spartak Moscow.  Is that because their national co-efficient is higher than ours?

For some reason League Path (i.e. runners-up/3rd/4th) clubs losing in CL QR3 skip a round and go direct into EL groups.

Unsure why 4 extra clubs don't progress from EL QR3, or enter later in EL QR4, to face them.

Edited August 11, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

For some reason League Path (i.e. runners-up/3rd/4th) clubs losing in CL QR3 skip a round and go direct into EL groups.

Unsure why 4 extra clubs don't progress from EL QR3 or enter direct into EL QR4 to face them.

It's almost as if the whole thing's a bloody farce.

[Ludo*1]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

It's almost as if the whole thing's a bloody farce.

This your time of the year again?

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Ludo*1 said:

This your time of the year again?

Aye.

[HibeeJibee]

This might be a query for @craigkillie.

I know it's perhaps unlikely both Aberdeen and Hibs will progress tomorrow... but if they did... would next Thursday be the first time 5 clubs have played in Europe on the same night? (Not checked draw so might be following Thursday if any city clashes/etc.).

I think 4 has happened a few times recently. Granted back in the day most games were played on Wednesday nights - but historically we hadn't even had 5 clubs in Europe too often.

Edited August 11, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

This might be a query for @craigkillie.

I know it's unlikely all 4 will progress tomorrow... but if they did... would next Thursday be the first time 5 clubs have played in Europe on the same night?

I think 4 has happened a few times recently. Granted back in the day most games were played on Wednesday nights - but historically we hadn't even had 5 clubs in Europe too often.

Historically, when you got knocked out, you were eliminated.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Monkey Tennis

[RandomGuy.]

35 minutes ago, Buckets said:

Getting into the group stages of Europe (yes you can say its a diddy tournament but its still games v Napoli, Tottenham, Feyenoord etc) is now a realistic target for Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs in the next couple of years. And for clubs like United, Dundee, Motherwell, Killie and even St Mirren it's not beyond the realms of possibility to one day get 3rd place and into the groups.

[craigkillie]

52 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

This might be a query for @craigkillie.

I know it's perhaps unlikely both Aberdeen and Hibs will progress tomorrow... but if they did... would next Thursday be the first time 5 clubs have played in Europe on the same night? (Not checked draw so might be following Thursday if any city clashes/etc.).

I think 4 has happened a few times recently. Granted back in the day most games were played on Wednesday nights - but historically we hadn't even had 5 clubs in Europe too often.

I thought this would be the case, but actually it has happened several times before - 14 times in total by my reckoning in fact. The most recent was 5th October 1988, when all five of our clubs were playing the second legs of their first ties in the competitions they were in:

European Cup - Celtic 4-0 Honved (4-1 agg)
Cup Winners Cup - Dundee United 1-0 Floriana (5-1 agg)
UEFA Cup - Dynamo Dresden 2-0 Aberdeen (2-0 agg)
UEFA Cup - Hearts 2-0 St Pat's Athletic (4-0 agg)
UEFA Cup - Katowice 2-4 Rangers (2-5 agg)

[HibeeJibee]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

I thought this would be the case, but actually it has happened several times before - 14 times in total by my reckoning in fact.

Thanks.

Surprising.

Always on Wednesdays?

[craigkillie]

7 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Thanks.

Surprising.

Always on Wednesdays?

Yes, always on a Wednesday. The 14 dates were:

1968-09-18
1968-10-02
1970-09-30
1971-09-15
1973-09-19
1973-10-03
1983-09-28
1984-10-03
1985-10-02
1986-09-17
1986-10-01
1987-09-16
1987-09-30
1988-10-05

[HibeeJibee]

50 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Yes, always on a Wednesday. The 14 dates were:

1968-09-18
1968-10-02
1970-09-30
1971-09-15
1973-09-19
1973-10-03
1983-09-28
1984-10-03
1985-10-02
1986-09-17
1986-10-01
1987-09-16
1987-09-30
1988-10-05

Interestingly there were also Texaco Cup ties in those nights.

R1 2nd legs in 1970 (Hearts v Burnley, Stoke v Motherwell, West Brom v Morton / Airdrie v Nottingham Forest, Dunfermline v Spurs, Wolves v Dundee, were all Tuesday)... R1 1st legs in 1971 (Derby v Dundee Utd, Hearts v Newcastle, Huddersfield v Morton, Mancester City v Airdrie, Motherwell v Stoke / Falkirk v Coventry was Tuesday)... R1 1st leg (Ayr v Leicester, Morton v Newcastle, St Johnstone v Norwich / Burnley v East Fife, Everton v Hearts and Sheffield Utd v Dundee Utd were Tuesday + Coventry v Motherwell following Tuesday); and 2nd legs in 1973 (all those mentioned / except Newcastle v Morton was Tuesday).

So an amazing number of international club ties at once.

Edited August 11, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[GordonS]

[Ginaro]

I'm thinking about it - we're up to 8th, a smidgen ahead of Russia. They lost two of their ECL clubs but will have 1xCL and 2xEL GS.

Important we have at least two GS teams to have a chance of staying ahead - Rangers should get through, Celtic will likely join them if they keep scoring like they have been, Aberdeen will need to get back home with the tie still to play for and St Johnstone are up against it again.

[RedLichtie86]

I'm thinking about it - we're up to 8th, a smidgen ahead of Russia. They lost two of their ECL clubs but will have 1xCL and 2xEL GS.
Important we have at least two GS teams to have a chance of staying ahead - Rangers should get through, Celtic will likely join them if they keep scoring like they have been, Aberdeen will need to get back home with the tie still to play for and St Johnstone are up against it again.

We have the 2 in the GS at least. Celtic or Rangers in the Europa or Conference.

As you said Aberdeen will need to wary of Qarabag and come back with a good result.

St Johnstone...... might need a small miracle.

[Buckets]

Scotland up to 8th in the coefficient ranking, overtaking Russia. It likely won't last as Russia have 3 teams in the group stages but still worth mentioning (the highest we've been this century is 9th in 2003). 

 

Rangers will most likely be in the Europa League but you'd expect Celtic to lose to AZ and drop into the Conference groups where they'd be pot 1. Definite chance of racking up some points there. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Buckets

[Theroadlesstravelled]

It looks like Rangers getting to the last 16 in Europe twice has bucked the trend of the Scottish teams being pish.

A normal OF showing would have us around level with Israel and Sweden.