Coefficientwatch

[Ludo*1]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You're right.  It is different.

The entire raison d'etre of human beings is not that they compete with each other for prizes using resources that cost money, so maybe wild inequality can be tolerated as inevitable.  It's not how I see things, but a case about what people deserve can be constructed.

With football though, the entire point is for teams to compete.  It's why we make both sides field eleven players and don't allow eight players in one of the teams to use their hands. 

There's actually therefore a greater need for an egalitarian outlook in football than there is in 'real life'.

 

 

Your assertion that the money Celtic have harvested in the last decade from the CL makes no difference is utterly, utterly beyond stupid.

 

So Celtic wouldn't have continually won the league without CL money?

The only thing stupid is your continual bleating in a thread where no-one really gives a f**k about the point you repeatedly make over and over again. This thread is to watch the coefficent - You disagree with that being improved as being a good thing. Your point was made when I called you out on the tedious shite many year ago in this very thread. Yet, still it's not enough for you. Your whinging isn't going to change things, so why continually do it?

Edited August 7, 2020 by Ludo*1

[Ludo*1]

On 16/08/2016 at 10:37, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm actually at the stage now where I wouldn't mind the creation of a super league that the biggest clubs were invited to join.

It would end the pretence that we're all invited to some European party if only we can be good enough.  It would at least admit that this no longer has anything at all to do with sport.

 

On 19/07/2017 at 10:27, Monkey Tennis said:

Superb post.

I couldn't care less about our coefficient.  European club football is demonstrably a party to which we're not invited.  We should have the pride to stop pressing our noses against the window like this.

 

 

On 17/07/2018 at 19:42, Monkey Tennis said:

The whole coefficient thing is a nonsense.

I couldn't care less about it.

 

On 18/07/2018 at 07:17, Monkey Tennis said:

To offer my view on what it's about.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 07:54, Monkey Tennis said:

How much better, or worse would our current coefficient situation need to get for it to have an impact, either positive or negative, on the participation of Scottish sides?

What would those impacts look like? 

 

On 20/07/2018 at 10:51, Monkey Tennis said:

Thank you for both answers - most helpful.

As stated, the reality is that things can get no worse really.  Despite Scotland's lowly status, the countries in the lower category really are the genuine minnows.

Getting into the one above (presumably the thing most posters on this thread yearn for) should be realistic, but obviously requires sustained improvement on recent performance.

 

Where it comes down for me though, concerns the 'prize' for reaching this next bracket up.  Genuinely, what's so attractive about it?

If I played for an EL qualifier, I'd maybe want the extended summer holiday that entering at a later stage would afford me, but I'm not, and very few, very fortunate people are.   As a fan, starting earlier probably provides more scope for a winnable tie and more scope for foreign travel, assuming that more ties are likely.

As regards the CL, I don't want a shorter route for our champions to the type of wealth that further distorts our domestic game.  Realistically, that club will only be one of those who already enjoy vast financial advantages over their peers at home.

Despite the fairly obvious desire for our teams to do better, for our league to 'look' better, I really don't see an improvement in our coefficient standing as especially desirable.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 14:11, Monkey Tennis said:

Well why is a thread devoted to the coefficient then, in which people talk about points for victories and compare the progress of our clubs to others near us in this table?

To many posters on here, this is clearly about something more tangible than pride.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 14:48, Monkey Tennis said:

Ostensibly sensible enough.  

However, it irritates me.  As we know, European club football is now designed to ensure that only a handful of clubs from a handful of countries can achieve anything constituting success in sporting terms.  

The real value of these competitions is financial, and the huge income they generate is hideously and damagingly distributed. 

It's a party to which our sides are conspicuously and deliberately not invited, so agonising over how we perform in such a context is futile and is to play the game of those doing the excluding.

PS. Does getting a bye in a couple of rounds really represent "doing better" anyway?

 

On 20/07/2018 at 15:31, Monkey Tennis said:

There's your "prize".  You clearly see that kind of progress as  a self fulfilling badge.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 15:33, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, that would be great for ensuring a more level domestic playing field.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 15:37, Monkey Tennis said:

Of course it existed beforehand, but I think a great deal of evidence suggests it's got very significantly worse since.  

Personally, I don't clap my hands when it's further exacerbated, but hey, we're all different.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 15:53, Monkey Tennis said:

I can genuinely think of nothing worse for our game than a return to those days.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 16:34, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, Celtic's debts are clearly crippling.

The idea of each potentially bringing in over £20m a season is indeed awful.  There wouldn't actually be an obligation on Rangers to drive themselves out of existence.  Most clubs with access to such wealth manage not to.

They would both move miles out of anyone else's reach and divide all the trophies between them.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 16:42, Monkey Tennis said:

Jesus Lichtie, you really do buy the OF propaganda wholesale don't you?

Employ some critical faculties for Christ's sake.

If one or two clubs net upwards of £20m while others get £100k, then in real terms the latter batch of clubs have become very much poorer, given that they exist in an environment where the whole idea is that they compete with the luckier ones using resources that cost money.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 16:52, Monkey Tennis said:

Oh it's better for the given clubs, but that doesn't improve things in a wider sense.  

This coefficient business creates the illusion of this being something collective.  The reality is that European football is structured in such a way as to fly in the face of that.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 17:16, Monkey Tennis said:

That's a rather silly post.

Of course clubs should do their best.  However, we the fans shouldn't get particularly hung up on  the coefficient or exaggerate its significance.

 

On 21/07/2018 at 08:02, Monkey Tennis said:

So I should yearn for circumstances that make it easier for sides like mine to somehow get in at a nice late stage; whilst simultaneously hoping that sides like mine don't get  in because they're such bad news for the coefficient, which is about clubs getting in?

Am I getting warmer?

 

On 27/07/2018 at 09:34, Ludo*1 said:

You just come across like a dick tbh. If you've no interest, don't visit the thread. 

 

On 27/07/2018 at 10:28, Monkey Tennis said:

Ach, fair enough - I probably am being a bit of a dick.

I am interested however.  That's why I posed the question a few pages back about what the outcomes of an improved coefficient would be.

My own view is that to bother about it too much, is to press our noses against the glass outside a party we've not been invited to, in a way that's thoroughly unbecoming.

I also think that it's used as a means to get us to wish the OF well in Europe, masking the actual damage, as opposed to good, that their progress does our game.

Maybe I should leave it though.

 

On 29/07/2018 at 08:57, Monkey Tennis said:

That wouldn't "fly in the face of how prize money should rightfully be distributed" at all.

It would just mark a departure from its current wrongful distribution.

 

Over and over and over again you feel the need to make the exact same point. It's boring pish. You do raise some good points, but you've massively diluted any valuable input when you spend 4 year saying the same thing, getting into the same petty arguments (And from some of the quotes I've not posted - Just post back childish insults).

You're better than this.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

So Celtic wouldn't have continually won the league without CL money?

Like you, I don't know.  

They have other big sources of income, so a big advantage would remain.  I don't think it's logically difficult to recognise that the advantage would be smaller though.  

You might as well argue that their big gates, or the scale of their merchandising operation make no difference.  It's genuinely insane to suggest that in our impoverished game, frequent injections of over £20m for a club can't matter.  

[Monkey Tennis]

On 07/08/2020 at 17:28, Ludo*1 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Over and over and over again you feel the need to make the exact same point. It's boring pish. You do raise some good points, but you've massively diluted any valuable input when you spend 4 year saying the same thing, getting into the same petty arguments (And from some of the quotes I've not posted - Just post back childish insults).

You're better than this.

Hey, thanks for gathering some of my greatest hits together in this way.

A bloody good read, that.  I kept finding myself nodding sagely.  

 

I'm really not better than this at all.  It's pretty much peak me.  Your objection isn't that I've made similar points over many posts spanning a few seasons.  If that troubled you, you'd pile into Ginaro for his ever more breathless posts.  Your objection is that I keep saying things you don't agree with.

I don't accept the narrative that says an improving coefficient, resulting in two CL spots is good for Scottish football.  Saying so in the coefficient thread on a Scottish football forum therefore seems pretty appropriate.  I'll keep challenging that narrative when I see it blindly trotted out.

If you don't like it, I'll live with it.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Monkey Tennis

[Ludo*1]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Hey, thanks for gathering some of my greatest hits together in this way.

A bloody good read, that.  I kept finding myself nodding sagely.  

 

I'm really not better than this at all.  It's pretty much peak me.  Your objection isn't that I've made similar points over many posts spanning a few seasons.  If that troubled you, you'd pile into Ginaro for his ever more breathless posts.  You're objection is that I keep saying things you don't agree with.

I don't accept the narrative that says an improving coefficient, resulting in two CL spots is good for Scottish football.  Saying so in the coefficient thread on a Scottish football forum therefore seems pretty appropriate.  I'll keep challenging that narrative when I see it blindly trotted out.

If you don't like it, I'll live with it.

My objection isn't that at all. My objection is your laborious need to make the same point over and over again and as you've admitted yourself, come across like an absolute dick.

The thread is about watching what happens with the coefficient- You believe this to be a negative for Scottish football - fine. I don't have a massive opinion on it one way or the other but I do like to keep track and see how we are doing in comparison to other countries. 

Yet you can't seem to accept that and feel the need to bleat repeatedly that it's bad. 

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

My objection isn't that at all. My objection is your laborious need to make the same point over and over again and as you've admitted yourself, come across like an absolute dick.

The thread is about watching what happens with the coefficient- You believe this to be a negative for Scottish football - fine. I don't have a massive opinion on it one way or the other but I do like to keep track and see how we are doing in comparison to other countries. 

Yet you can't seem to accept that and feel the need to bleat repeatedly that it's bad. 

Yes, I'm challenging a narrative I see as damaging.

I'll keep doing so.  Sorry.

[Ludo*1]

7 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, I'm challenging a narrative I see as damaging.

I'll keep doing so.  Sorry.

Yeah, people watching a coefficient and marking it on here as they go is truly damaging right enough.

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Ludo*1 said:

Yeah, people watching a coefficient and marking it on here as they go is truly damaging right enough.

Don't be daft Ludo.

Same place next summer?

[Ludo*1]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Don't be daft Ludo.

Same place next summer?

It does seem like an annual thing!

[d31]

On 06/08/2020 at 22:22, Ginaro said:

Greece lose their final club meaning we are guaranteed at least 15th - so two CL, one EL, and two ECL places for the 2021-22 season.

Switzerland need Basel to win their QF and SF ties without resorting to penalties, then either win the final or take it to penalties in order to overtake us. In that sense, we are very close to securing 14th place, and as mentioned a guaranteed group stage place for 3rd/Scottish Cup winner.

We will start this season in 13th (unless Copenhagen get to the semis and draw) as we have the lowest score to drop off from 15/16 of anyone around us. This will be our final season with four teams so we have to make the most of it - might be hard to replicate 9.750 but another season like 18/19 with 6+ points would do nicely.

All our Conference League clubs would miss the first qualifying round for countries ranked 30+, so half of the diddies would be knocked out already.

Can you clarify the guaranteed europa group stage comment as that's not what I am reading on Bert Kasies page

[realmadrid]

I was trying to work that out as well.

The Conference league title holder spot will not be used in year one as there is no competition this year so all the cup winners should move up one spot. 

I was thinking our cup winner would then end up one place short of group stage football being guaranteed on the basis that if they start in the play off round a win would take them to the group stage of the Europa league and a loss would send them to the group stage of the Conference league. As it stands I think the cup winner or 3rd place will start in round 3 of qualifying next season for the Europa league. 

its certainly better for a non old firm side to take this spot than the risk of the second Champions league spot where with a low club coefficient they would be unseeded and could go from a virtually impossible tie in Champions league qualifying 2, to an unseeded tie in Europa league qualifying 3 and then a difficult play off in Conference 4. Ranger or Celtic as a runner cup would be seeded in Europa league 3rd qualifying and certainly in Conference 4th round if they were to keep losing. 

For any non old firm team the top 15 nations Europa league will certainly be a windfall if they can make the group stage. I am not sure how much money there will then be in the conference league but it could be good experience for players and fans if any of our teams make it. 

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, d31 said:

Can you clarify the guaranteed europa group stage comment as that's not what I am reading on Bert Kasies page

Where are you reading it on Bert's site, as I first saw it mentioned on his forum?

The access list has a space for the ECL title holder in the EL GS. If you look at what happened this season when both title holder places were vacated, then you can see how it works with some clubs getting bumped up and entering in a later round: https://kassiesa.net/uefa/AccessList2019.html

For 2021-22, EL Q3 has 3 cup winners from associations 13-15 plus 3 losers from CL Q2 for non-champions. With a gap in the EL GS because of no ECL title holder, the cup winner from association 7 moves up, so two clubs from the EL Q3 (countries 13 and 14) would move to the EL play-off up to fill the gap.

(there's an added complication of the CL Q2 might have four clubs and thus only two losers if the EL title holder spot is vacated like this season!)

[d31]

I was just looking at the diagrams but I hadn't thought of it that there was no ECL winner in the first year. I understand that the winners of the competitions can have a bit of a knock on if they also doing well domestically.

I'll be very interested in this thread if Aberdeen are doing well haha.

 

Edit: so to summarise if we can climb to 13/14 we'd be much more interested in who is winning the tournaments and if they already have a better/equal standing from their league campaign.

Edited August 10, 2020 by d31

[realmadrid]

59 minutes ago, d31 said:

I was just looking at the diagrams but I hadn't thought of it that there was no ECL winner in the first year. I understand that the winners of the competitions can have a bit of a knock on if they also doing well domestically.

I'll be very interested in this thread if Aberdeen are doing well haha.

 

Edit: so to summarise if we can climb to 13/14 we'd be much more interested in who is winning the tournaments and if they already have a better/equal standing from their league campaign.

It would be ironic for Aberdeen if having had 5 or 6 year of being on the fringe of things , that the year a change comes that would help they were not able to take advantage of it.

The new style Europa league will be very high quality with just teams from the top 15 leagues. 

[d31]

20 minutes ago, realmadrid said:

It would be ironic for Aberdeen if having had 5 or 6 year of being on the fringe of things , that the year a change comes that would help they were not able to take advantage of it.

The new style Europa league will be very high quality with just teams from the top 15 leagues. 

Yes 7 years in a row of being in the top 3 entrants (4th entrant in three seasons but seasons when 3rd/4th are treated equally) it would be very very Aberdeen FC to win the 2019/20 Scottish Cup, finish 5th in the league, and with Hearts winning the Scottish Cup (2020/21).

Jokes aside I'm hopeful we can be back in again next season. August might be a bumpy ride but we have a good squad this season

Edited August 10, 2020 by d31

[ScoRoss]

[Ginaro]

7 minutes ago, d31 said:

I was just looking at the diagrams but I hadn't thought of it that there was no ECL winner in the first year. I understand that the winners of the competitions can have a bit of a knock on if they also doing well domestically.

I'll be very interested in this thread if Aberdeen are doing well haha.

Edit: so to summarise if we can climb to 13/14 we'd be much more interested in who is winning the tournaments and if they already have a better/equal standing from their league campaign.

We're already 14th and basically it's confirmed unless Basel win the EL on 21st August. Bert posted from the rules that cup winners get priority if the access list has to be adjusted. Going by UEFA's usual procedures it would seem that once association 7's cup winner fills the missing EL GS spot, then the cup winners from 13 and 14 move to the EL play-off round.

CL title holder spot is almost never used, so the 11th country gets a GS spot and there's some movement in the qualifying rounds. EL title holder spot has been used in the last 3/5 seasons, and it affects the CL non-champions path.

@ScoRoss I saw that, but it doesn't take into account the rebalancing which takes place when the CL, EL and ECL title holder spots are vacated.

Wouldn't be easy to win the EL play-off tie as Aberdeen would be unseeded and in with a chance of drawing half of the following: domestic cup winners from associations 7–13; champions who drop out from CL Q3 and Q2; a couple of non-champions from CL Q2. But easier than trying to qualify to the EL GS currently!

[d31]

24 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

We're already 14th and basically it's confirmed unless Basel win the EL on 21st August. Bert posted from the rules that cup winners get priority if the access list has to be adjusted. Going by UEFA's usual procedures it would seem that once association 7's cup winner fills the missing EL GS spot, then the cup winners from 13 and 14 move to the EL play-off round.

CL title holder spot is almost never used, so the 11th country gets a GS spot and there's some movement in the qualifying rounds. EL title holder spot has been used in the last 3/5 seasons, and it affects the CL non-champions path.

@ScoRoss I saw that, but it doesn't take into account the rebalancing which takes place when the CL, EL and ECL title holder spots are vacated.

Wouldn't be easy to win the EL play-off tie as Aberdeen would be unseeded and in with a chance of drawing half of the following: domestic cup winners from associations 7–13; champions who drop out from CL Q3 and Q2; a couple of non-champions from CL Q2. But easier than trying to qualify to the EL GS currently!

No I know Aberdeen, or any other team, would be rank outsiders in the situation but it's infinitely more favourable than what we've faced in the last 7 years. the eight consecutive Thursdays is tough mentally and physically before any consideration for facing quality opposition.

Having two ties (EL Q3 and ECL PO) to guarantee group stage football is a very nice prospect. Having guaranteed group stage football is the promise land which would allow AFC to invest significantly.

A mini version of Rangers being able to invest more once they are secure in the champions league which presumably is not far off now. Pros and Cons of that to be discussed another day.

Were already 14th for next season?

Edited August 10, 2020 by d31

[Ginaro]

45 minutes ago, d31 said:

No I know Aberdeen, or any other team, would be rank outsiders in the situation but it's infinitely more favourable than what we've faced in the last 7 years. the eight consecutive Thursdays is tough mentally and physically before any consideration for facing quality opposition.

Having two ties (EL Q3 and ECL PO) to guarantee group stage football is a very nice prospect. Having guaranteed group stage football is the promise land which would allow AFC to invest significantly.

A mini version of Rangers being able to invest more once they are secure in the champions league which presumably is not far off now. Pros and Cons of that to be discussed another day.

Were already 14th for next season?

We are currently 14th (guaranteed 15th) in the 2019-20 ranking: https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method5/crank2020.html

That sets the allocation for the 2021-22 access list, so during the 2020-21 season that's what clubs will be competing for - i.e. two CL, one EL, two ECL at the end of this season.

[d31]

Thanks for all the info