Coefficientwatch

[AngusTheBull]

3 hours ago, charger29 said:

Unless UEFA clarify a bit more about quali coefficient points it seems like the new format will negatively affect Scotland in 20/21.
Thr potential points seem to have been halved with single leg ties for every round other than CL playoff rd. I saw someone on the kassiesa forums suggesting giving an imaginary 0-0 draw for the all non played legs. This would at least give some points back to teams in quali. Still shite though.

The thing is it’s been halved for everyone around us as well, all of whom have similar qualification paths. 
 

Surely just doubling the number of points for the first 3 rounds is easiest though?

[charger29]

The thing is it’s been halved for everyone around us as well, all of whom have similar qualification paths. 
 
Surely just doubling the number of points for the first 3 rounds is easiest though?

We did seem to be taking advantage of the long qualifying route better than other countries though. It's came at a bad time as well as the quick leap up the coefficient table just in time for the new format won't continue in the same way next season.
Having guaranteed gs points is, relative to last season, more important now. You're right that this doesn't particularly affect the countries around us. Although I guess it depends how far you want to look up.

Not sure about the points given. I think the idea is to try to even things out a bit for the away team.

[Frank Grimes]

Five European places up for grabs next season then?

1st and 2nd place = champions league

3rd & 4th = Europa conference 

SC winners = Europa league 

I presume if a top 4 club wins the Cup, 5th place would get a European spot 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Scottish_Premiership

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, Frank Grimes said:

Five European places up for grabs next season then?

1st and 2nd place = champions league

3rd & 4th = Europa conference 

SC winners = Europa league 

I presume if a top 4 club wins the Cup, 5th place would get a European spot 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Scottish_Premiership

Yes, assuming we remain top 15 - Greece and Switzerland would need to catch us to put us down to 16th. Basel are still in the competition but it remains to be seen what is going to happen in terms of coefficient points with the one-legged ties. Even if they won the all their matches they would fall just short unless UEFA awarded double coefficient points or something.

Olympiacos could go out to Wolves anyway which would confirm our top 15 place.

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/58/61/42/2586142_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[gannonball]

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18622952.remarkable-coefficient-stat-no-one-talking/

[ahemps]

On 02/08/2020 at 12:00, gannonball said:

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18622952.remarkable-coefficient-stat-no-one-talking/

Celtic and Rangers have done well to get they points.

The writer though talks about getting to 10th in Europes rankings. This will be extremely difficult and there are a few reasons for this. Celtic and Rangers start in the early qualifiers therefore pick up some easy ranking points. When they start entering at a further stage then they have to get further to pick up the same amount of points, also the countries we replace then get the opportunity to get the easy points so if we go above a Denmark or a Greece their sides will mop up the early rounds and it will become a yo-yo effect in the rankings.

The next thing is if Celtic or/and Rangers do get straight to the champions league then they wont win as much games as they would in the Europa therefore dropping down the rankings again. 

I think 14th-20th is where Scotland fit in the UEFA rankings. We were at 26th a few years ago and to get near the top 10 we have to do better than Turkey, Netherlands, Ukraine on a consistent basis.

[charger29]

Celtic and Rangers have done well to get they points.
The writer though talks about getting to 10th in Europes rankings. This will be extremely difficult and there are a few reasons for this. Celtic and Rangers start in the early qualifiers therefore pick up some easy ranking points. When they start entering at a further stage then they have to get further to pick up the same amount of points, also the countries we replace then get the opportunity to get the easy points so if we go above a Denmark or a Greece their sides will mop up the early rounds and it will become a yo-yo effect in the rankings.
The next thing is if Celtic or/and Rangers do get straight to the champions league then they wont win as much games as they would in the Europa therefore dropping down the rankings again. 
I think 14th-20th is where Scotland fit in the UEFA rankings. We were at 26th a few years ago and to get near the top 10 we have to do better than Turkey, Netherlands, Ukraine on a consistent basis.

Top 10 is a bit much. I'd say 12-17 range is our territory.
Looking at the graphs on kassiesa which track the country rankings:
https://kassiesa.net/uefa/plots.html
There's around 8/9 countries who are fairly consistently top 10. Beyond that there's the likes of Turkey/Belgium who are always there or there abouts. Very difficult to see us breaking into that consistently.
Although it is difficult to predict the effects of the new competition and access list from 2021-22 (other than the top 15 advantage). I don't think the method of calculating coefficient points are known yet for the competitions either. Surely that will have to change in some way?

[ScoRoss]

There's also the fact that from next season, barring something ridiculous, Scotland will have five teams in European competition instead of only the four just now. With only Celtic and Rangers making a serious indent, averaging the points over an extra team would bring a lower points total.

Obviously with the Europa Conference League, still not entirely sure how the points will be dished out or the real level of competition. It'll also remove some of the complete diddies that our team's would expect to easily overcome in the Europa League qualifiers.

[Binos]

1 hour ago, ScoRoss said:

There's also the fact that from next season, barring something ridiculous, Scotland will have five teams in European competition instead of only the four just now. With only Celtic and Rangers making a serious indent, averaging the points over an extra team would bring a lower points total.

Obviously with the Europa Conference League, still not entirely sure how the points will be dished out or the real level of competition. It'll also remove some of the complete diddies that our team's would expect to easily overcome in the Europa League qualifiers.

Most of our teams are in the complete diddy bracket

[ScoRoss]

3 hours ago, Binos said:

Most of our teams are in the complete diddy bracket

Except now we'll have more diddies in the Europa Conference...

Hopefully, just hopefully, Motherwell might be able to not completely be embarrassed and lose to a part time Welsh team. At least then we'll be doing better than last season.

[charger29]

They're saying on the kassiesa forum that because there is no title holder of the UEFA conference league for its inaugural season, if Scotland finish 14th our CW/3rd place team will have a group stage spot in the conference guaranteed at a minimum. Didn't realise that.

[Arch Stanton]

8 hours ago, ScoRoss said:

Except now we'll have more diddies in the Europa Conference...

Hopefully, just hopefully, Motherwell might be able to not completely be embarrassed and lose to a part time Welsh team.

What about a part-time Latvian team?

[Ginaro]

Greece lose their final club meaning we are guaranteed at least 15th - so two CL, one EL, and two ECL places for the 2021-22 season.

Switzerland need Basel to win their QF and SF ties without resorting to penalties, then either win the final or take it to penalties in order to overtake us. In that sense, we are very close to securing 14th place, and as mentioned a guaranteed group stage place for 3rd/Scottish Cup winner.

We will start this season in 13th (unless Copenhagen get to the semis and draw) as we have the lowest score to drop off from 15/16 of anyone around us. This will be our final season with four teams so we have to make the most of it - might be hard to replicate 9.750 but another season like 18/19 with 6+ points would do nicely.

20 minutes ago, ScoRoss said:

Except now we'll have more diddies in the Europa Conference...

Hopefully, just hopefully, Motherwell might be able to not completely be embarrassed and lose to a part time Welsh team. At least then we'll be doing better than last season.

All our Conference League clubs would miss the first qualifying round for countries ranked 30+, so half of the diddies would be knocked out already.

[Monkey Tennis]

Dreadful news that we'll have 2 CL spots in future.

Most of the simpering fools who post in this thread will, of course, rejoice though.

[ahemps]

10 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Dreadful news that we'll have 2 CL spots in future.

Most of the simpering fools who post in this thread will, of course, rejoice though.

Have you seen the potential teams who the 2nd placed team (Rangers) would have to beat to qualify for the group stage? For example this year 2 places were between, Olympiakos, Basel, PSV, Viktoria Pzen, Basaksehir, Krasnodar, Brugge, Porto, Dynamo Kiev, LASK. No way is the runner up of the SPFL getting through this. 

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, ahemps said:

Have you seen the potential teams who the 2nd placed team (Rangers) would have to beat to qualify for the group stage? For example this year 2 places were between, Olympiakos, Basel, PSV, Viktoria Pzen, Basaksehir, Krasnodar, Brugge, Porto, Dynamo Kiev, LASK. No way is the runner up of the SPFL getting through this. 

If we use this season's qualifiers and the 2021-22 access list, Rangers would be up against Copenhagen or Viktoria Plzen in QR2 to begin with.

Win and they'd play Gent / Lokomotiv Moscow / AZ Alkmaar or Dynamo Kyiv / Besiktas / Braga depending on whether they beat Copenhagen (seeded) or Plzen (unseeded) in QR3.

If they won that either they'd need to play Dynamo Kyiv / Besiktas in the play-off round - or one of the other clubs if they'd already beat one of those two in the previous round.

Would be a tall order but a decent chance of getting to the Europa League group stage again when they drop out.

[Ludo*1]

16 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Dreadful news that we'll have 2 CL spots in future.

Most of the simpering fools who post in this thread will, of course, rejoice though.

I don't know why this continually upsets you. We are never going to be in a position to close the gap on Celtic/Rangers dominance. I wish the case was otherwise, but it's not. 

Celtic and Rangers doing well in the CL will have a trickle down effect for the rest of the teams as more money is in the Scottish game and a few more 'diddy' teams get a few European outings along the way.

If we got into a position where the diddy 3rd team could get into the Europa League group stages then that club could potentially net a windfall and have some fantastic days out too.

[Monkey Tennis]

11 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

I don't know why this continually upsets you. We are never going to be in a position to close the gap on Celtic/Rangers dominance. I wish the case was otherwise, but it's not. 

Celtic and Rangers doing well in the CL will have a trickle down effect for the rest of the teams as more money is in the Scottish game and a few more 'diddy' teams get a few European outings along the way.

If we got into a position where the diddy 3rd team could get into the Europa League group stages then that club could potentially net a windfall and have some fantastic days out too.

European money is one of the significant reasons why those sides are so far ahead.  It's not the only one, but to dismiss it because it's not solely responsible is nuts.

Tell me, do you generally have similar beliefs in favour of unfettered wealth for particular groups in society, In the hope that some meagre crumbs trickle down to others, or do you reserve such a wildly right wing economic outlook for football?

[Ludo*1]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

European money is one of the significant reasons why those sides are so far ahead.  It's not the only one, but to dismiss it because it's not solely responsible is nuts.

Tell me, do you generally have similar beliefs in favour of unfettered wealth for particular groups in society, In the hope that some meagre crumbs trickle down to others, or do you reserve such a wildly right wing economic outlook for football?

Football is a different scenario entirely from real life.

If Celtic and Rangers were denied Europe season in, season out, we'd still be in the exact same situation we are now. Celtic would still win the league. They'd still have a massive financial advantage. 

There'd be less money coming into the game and as such the quality of players you and I watch week in, week out would decline.  The best of the rest wouldn't get any wee European jaunts.

The best case scenario for Scottish football is Celtic and Rangers not being here. I'd happily sacrifice European competition and trickle down economics for that, but we play with the cards we are dealt and make the best of it.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

Football is a different scenario entirely from real life.

If Celtic and Rangers were denied Europe season in, season out, we'd still be in the exact same situation we are now. Celtic would still win the league. They'd still have a massive financial advantage. 

There'd be less money coming into the game and as such the quality of players you and I watch week in, week out would decline.  The best of the rest wouldn't get any wee European jaunts.

The best case scenario for Scottish football is Celtic and Rangers not being here. I'd happily sacrifice European competition and trickle down economics for that, but we play with the cards we are dealt and make the best of it.

You're right.  It is different.

The entire raison d'etre of human beings is not that they compete with each other for prizes using resources that cost money, so maybe wild inequality can be tolerated as inevitable.  It's not how I see things, but a case about what people deserve can be constructed.

With football though, the entire point is for teams to compete.  It's why we make both sides field eleven players and don't allow eight players in one of the teams to use their hands. 

There's actually therefore a greater need for an egalitarian outlook in football than there is in 'real life'.

 

 

Your assertion that the money Celtic have harvested in the last decade from the CL makes no difference is utterly, utterly beyond stupid.