Coefficientwatch

[Ginaro]

Update after this week's games. Could've done with a Rangers win instead of a draw, but at least we have three teams through. Croatia with two wins but down to two teams, and Aberdeen could reduce that to one in QR3. Two Swiss sides are up against Spartak and Espanyol in QR3 so they might not go any further. Denmark in 14th (25.250) have tough games for all three of their teams - Red Star, Rangers, Braga - so could be left with just Copenhagen in the EL play-off round.

15		Cyprus	3.000	5.500	7.000	6.125	2.375	24.000 +0.750	3/ 4
16		Greece	5.400	5.800	5.100	5.100	1.000	22.400 +0.600	5/ 5
17		Croatia	4.500	5.125	5.125	5.750	1.000	21.500 +0.500	2/ 4
18		Serbia	4.250	2.875	6.375	6.000	1.875	21.375 +0.250	2/ 4
19		Scotland	3.000	4.375	4.000	6.750	3.000	21.125 +0.625	3/ 4
20		Switzerland	5.300	4.300	6.500	3.900	0.600	20.600 +0.400	5/ 5
21		Norway	7.250	1.375	4.000	5.375	2.375	20.375 +0.500	3/ 4
22		Sweden	4.750	2.750	5.375	4.125	2.500	19.500 +0.750	3/ 4

[d31]

Disappointing result for Rangers

[Ross.]

11 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Two Swiss sides are up against Spartak and Espanyol in QR3 so they might not go any further.

Would be hugely surprised if either Thun or Luzern won their ties. Basel I'd have a slight favourites to beat Linz in the CL qualifier.

[ssdon]

Overall a good round for the Scottish teams, we should have had 6 wins though but all three are through and at least managed to get points in each game played.

Next round will be tough but it is a possibility that all 3 go through, could also go the other way and only be left with Celtic in EL Playoff.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On ‎01‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 14:05, charger29 said:

What's the point of gaining those points if you're not going to use those points to move up the points table?

In all seriousness, Scotland has regularly been inside the top 15. Taking just the CL era into account we're borderline top 15 with some seasons clearly inside and some clearly outside.
We've shown over the past few seasons that we're better than our current position shows though.

I don't mind being corrected here but I'm positive that I read somewhere that the coefficiency tables change about, I'm not sure 6 year ago to include everyone and there was a small change last year.
The national team results joining the national club results and the standard of the national league all combine to give the rank about 6 - 4  years ago.

I'm sure before the coefficient just worked on the individual team rank mark.

 

Right now UEFA club coefficient rank is that  Celtic are at 47 mark, Aberdeen 192 and Rangers 206. New Saints from Wales are 179 and after watching them last night against Copenhagen there is no way 'New Saints', I believe, would  beat Rangers or Aberdeen but the Welsh team are ranked higher.

Coefficiency for ranking teams I think is the right thing to do but is the way its calculated now by UEFA the best way ?.

For example; Right now Ukraine has a team straight in the group stages and a team in the league path, Both famous but the rest of the league, its teams you have never heard of. So the way its calculated in the past 5 years if one of the teams lower down won the league instead of 'Shakhtar Donesk' or 'Dynamo Kyiv' would they too go straight to the group stages because of what 'Shakhtar Donesk 'and 'Kyiv' have done in the past 5 years. Its always been those two teams only since 2014/15 season when 'Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk' where in the third qualifying round. This team is no longer operating, (liquidated)  and a note of interest, the previous season, 13/14, the 2nd place team in the league was 'FC Metalist Kharkiv' but they were thrown out in august of the play off round, (place went to 'PAOK' from Greece whom 'Kharkiv' beat earlier round - third qualifying). This team is no longer operating. SO in reality the Ukranian league only have two top teams who keep winning year in year out. SO if the extraordinary happened,  if say  'FC Oleksandriya' 3rd this year and 'Zorya Luhansk' 4th this year finished 1st and 2nd respectively next year would they go into the group stages and the third qualifying round even though their experience in Europe is limited and nothing in the champions league in past 5 years    If this is true then that's what the flaw is with the current coefficency rankings and workings.
I only checked the Ukranian league just out of interest but I'm sure there will be a few leagues similar to this.  
Oh of note, the last time Scottish tams had the same amount as Ukranian at the same stage was   2010–11. Celtic were in the third qualifying round with Dynamo Kyiv and Rangers and Shakhtar were both straight in at the group stages.

Officially on the UEFA website is states 

""""""""""""""""""""""""""

HOW TO READ THE COEFFICIENTS

The club coefficients are based on the results of clubs competing in the five previous seasons of the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League. The rankings determine the seeding of each club in relevant UEFA competition draws.

The season club coefficients are based on the results of clubs competing in the current UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League season. The rankings, combined with those of the previous four seasons, determine the seeding for each club in all UEFA competition draws.

Coefficient calculation
Clubs' coefficients are determined EITHER the sum of all points won in the previous five years OR the association coefficient over the same period, WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards).

These will be updated after each round of UEFA club competition matches.

For matches up to and including 2017/18

UEFA Champions League points system
First qualifying round elimination – 0.5 points
Second qualifying round elimination – 1 point
Group stage bonus participation – 4 points
Group stage win – 2 points
Group stage draw – 1 point
Round of 16 bonus participation – 4 points

Clubs are also awarded an additional point if they reach the round of 16, quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

NB Points are not awarded for elimination in the third qualifying round or play-offs, since those clubs move to the UEFA Europa League and are awarded points for participation in that competition.

UEFA Europa League points system
First qualifying round elimination – 0.25 points
Second qualifying round elimination – 0.5 points
Third qualifying round elimination – 1 point
Play-off elimination – 1.5 points
Group stage win – 2 points
Group stage draw – 1 point

Clubs are also guaranteed a minimum of two points if they reach the group stage and are awarded an additional point if they get to the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

*Penalty shoot-outs do not affect the calculation system.

For 2018/19 matches onwards

UEFA Champions League points system
Group stage participation – 4 points
Group stage win – 2 points
Group stage draw – 1 point
Round of 16 participation – 4 points

Clubs are awarded an additional point if they reach the round of 16, quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

N.B. Points are not awarded for elimination in the qualifying rounds or play-offs, since those clubs move to the UEFA Europa League and are awarded points for participation in that competition.

UEFA Europa League points system
Preliminary round elimination – 0.5 points
First qualifying round elimination – 1 point
Second qualifying round elimination – 1.5 points
Third qualifying round elimination – 2 points
Play-off elimination – 2.5 points
Group stage win – 2 points
Group stage draw – 1 point

Clubs are guaranteed a minimum of three points if they reach the group stage and are awarded an additional point if they get to the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final.

* Penalty shoot-outs do not affect the calculation system.

©UEFA.com 1998-2017. All rights reserved.

""""""""""""""""""""""""""

 

What's everyone's view of this, do you think the way it works is the best way or does it favour the best teams in the best leagues ? Ukraine league I fear is definitely not one of them.

Should the rank just be on club or club and league ?
Should it be every 5 years or 2 years etc... ?

Thoughts all......

Edited August 2, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[charger29]

Impossible to quote or type long posts on the app now. The screen just goes black.

It's difficult to say on some of the points. There's probably going to be issues no matter what you do with it. Look at Wolves this season, they haven't been in Europe for 40 years and will be seeded for every round of Europa League qualifying (I think). Crusaders, who they just beat, have been in Europe for about 10 years straight and would only have been seeded for the 1st round. It seems shite at first glance but looking at the stats over the two legs Crusaders never had one shot on goal.
I'm not really bothered by the club coefficient tbh. It seems pretty fair imo. It's the amount of teams going into CL/EL from the top leagues and also the automatic group stage positions which is the real problem. 2 automatic and 1 in quali for the top leagues in CL for me. Every county down to ~15th gets at least 1 in group stages.
Uefa is always pushing to favour the top teams in every decision now. There's no easy way to stop it. 2024 will be a big year where they decide how far they're willing to push it with the threat of a superleague beginning around then.

[craigkillie]

Couldn't tell if it was implied in the long post above, but just to confirm, the performance of the national teams have absolutely no bearing on these coefficients.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

27 minutes ago, charger29 said:

Impossible to quote or type long posts on the app now. The screen just goes black.

It's difficult to say on some of the points. There's probably going to be issues no matter what you do with it. Look at Wolves this season, they haven't been in Europe for 40 years and will be seeded for every round of Europa League qualifying (I think). Crusaders, who they just beat, have been in Europe for about 10 years straight and would only have been seeded for the 1st round. It seems shite at first glance but looking at the stats over the two legs Crusaders never had one shot on goal.
I'm not really bothered by the club coefficient tbh. It seems pretty fair imo. It's the amount of teams going into CL/EL from the top leagues and also the automatic group stage positions which is the real problem. 2 automatic and 1 in quali for the top leagues in CL for me. Every county down to ~15th gets at least 1 in group stages.
Uefa is always pushing to favour the top teams in every decision now. There's no easy way to stop it. 2024 will be a big year where they decide how far they're willing to push it with the threat of a superleague beginning around then.

Totally agree with what your saying but The reason I said Ukraine is that, I believe the standard is low, except the top two. and have seen games from this league played.

I think with you mentioning Wolves, is not a good example, yes 40 years is true but they are in one of the top leagues in the world, thus any team in that league could easily hold their own in the champions league. How many other leagues are like this with their top team doing so well but the league standard is low but the national team do fairly well.

 

Its just interesting the way its arranged, is there a better way.
one thing we will say, every country has at least one top team or two in their top league but all at different standards. the Ukraine example was given really to say how bad the league is with most teams not known.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Couldn't tell if it was implied in the long post above, but just to confirm, the performance of the national teams have absolutely no bearing on these coefficients.

I was giving examples of problems that are created with the way UEFA coefficiency is worked out and is there better ways.

When I says the league standard, I'm also considering how the national team does in national competitions, is that considered?

if the national leagues are not considered (also national team), as since 2014 its only been Dynamo Kyiv and Shakhtar Donesk in the European cup so if two other teams come first and second then I take it they wouldn't get the group stage berth and the third qualifying berth.  Whats worse, UEFA has fc Dnipro ranked at 63 in their list and that team has folded and a new team formed two years ago called Dnipro Sc

[Ginaro]

4 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I don't mind being corrected here but I'm positive that I read somewhere that the coefficiency tables change about, I'm not sure 6 year ago to include everyone and there was a small change last year.
The national team results joining the national club results and the standard of the national league all combine to give the rank about 6 - 4  years ago.

I'm sure before the coefficient just worked on the individual team rank mark.

This is the important bit:

Coefficient calculation
Clubs' coefficients are determined EITHER the sum of all points won in the previous five years OR the association coefficient over the same period, WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards).

That was the change that came in for the 2017/18 season - basically any club who hasn't accrued enough points own in the past five season (e.g. Rangers), gets assigned 20% of the country coefficient. https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/trank2019.html

Previously, the club coefficient for each season was the club's points + 20% of the country coefficient, which can see here: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2017.html

It's fair enough I think - if you are seeding teams you don't want 7th place from a big country being unseeded when they are likely to be of a much higher standard than 2nd place from a diddy country.

13 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

as since 2014 its only been Dynamo Kyiv and Shakhtar Donesk in the European cup so if two other teams come first and second then I take it they wouldn't get the group stage berth and the third qualifying berth.

I don't understand what you mean. If Ross County win the Premiership they qualify for the CL QR1 just like Celtic would - same if Motherwell finished 2nd, they'd qualify for the EL QR1.

Whether they are seeded or not depends on the club coefficient - Ross County would have 20% of the country coefficient so this season would just make it in as a seeded team for QR1, same with Motherwell.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ginaro

[Bestsinceslicebread]

14 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

This is the important bit:

Coefficient calculation
Clubs' coefficients are determined EITHER the sum of all points won in the previous five years OR the association coefficient over the same period, WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards).

That was the change that came in for the 2017/18 season - basically any club who hasn't accrued enough points own in the past five season (e.g. Rangers), gets assigned 20% of the country coefficient. https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/trank2019.html

Previously, the club coefficient for each season was the club's points + 20% of the country coefficient, which can see here: https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2017.html

It's fair enough I think - if you are seeding teams you don't want 7th place from a big country being unseeded when they are likely to be of a much higher standard than 2nd place from a diddy country.

I don't understand what you mean. If Ross County win the Premiership they qualify for the CL QR1 just like Celtic would - same if Motherwell finished 2nd, they'd qualify for the EL QR1.

Whether they are seeded or not depends on the club coefficient - Ross County would have 20% of the country coefficient so this season would just make it in as a seeded team for QR1, same with Motherwell.

First part yip, I get it

 

Second part, not meaning Celtic n Ross county.
I mean the Ukrainian league who have a group stage entry and third qualifying round entry.
if two other teams except the main two finished 1st and 2nd would the new teams still get entry at the same points even though they have not much experience in Europe and especially champions league.  if they don't go in at the stage both top Ukranians teams go in at does that mean a group stage and third qualifying entry is up for grabs.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Spring Onion]

So would it be correct in saying that, the leagues coefficient is what's used for deciding how many teams we have in European football and what round they would start. The clubs coefficient is what is used to work out if your seeded or not or what pot you would be in for group stages?

[Blootoon87]

So would it be correct in saying that, the leagues coefficient is what's used for deciding how many teams we have in European football and what round they would start. The clubs coefficient is what is used to work out if your seeded or not or what pot you would be in for group stages?

Exactly.

[Spring Onion]

Just now, Blootoon87 said:

Just now, Spring Onion said:

So would it be correct in saying that, the leagues coefficient is what's used for deciding how many teams we have in European football and what round they would start. The clubs coefficient is what is used to work out if your seeded or not or what pot you would be in for group stages?

Exactly.

Ok, it's as I thought.

[charger29]

Totally agree with what your saying but The reason I said Ukraine is that, I believe the standard is low, except the top two. and have seen games from this league played.

I think with you mentioning Wolves, is not a good example, yes 40 years is true but they are in one of the top leagues in the world, thus any team in that league could easily hold their own in the champions league. How many other leagues are like this with their top team doing so well but the league standard is low but the national team do fairly well.

 

Its just interesting the way its arranged, is there a better way.

one thing we will say, every country has at least one top team or two in their top league but all at different standards. the Ukraine example was given really to say how bad the league is with most teams not known.

In the Ukrainian league, if other teams outside the "big two" were to finish 1st and 2nd, they'd go in at the same stage (one in groups & one in q3) as the big two would've. The only difference would be the individual clubs coefficient points, so for example Shakhtar would be pot 2 in CL groups but Dnipro would be pot 4.

 

If Dnipro were to finish 1st and Shahktar 2nd, do you think Shahktar should go into the CL at a more advanced stage than Dnipro? That would be a bit harsh for me.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

16 hours ago, charger29 said:

In the Ukrainian league, if other teams outside the "big two" were to finish 1st and 2nd, they'd go in at the same stage (one in groups & one in q3) as the big two would've. The only difference would be the individual clubs coefficient points, so for example Shakhtar would be pot 2 in CL groups but Dnipro would be pot 4.

If Dnipro were to finish 1st and Shahktar 2nd, do you think Shahktar should go into the CL at a more advanced stage than Dnipro?

No, I'm more thinking the standard of the teams in that league are very low but they would  still get a place in the group stage and third qualifying stage.  if one of the average teams won or came second in that league with non existent champions league experience, again they would get the same place. Dnipro are only 2 years old now but they would get the group stage if they won the league.

I'm not saying the current rankings is wrong or bad, I just don't like them but is there any other way that would be fairer to all teams, especially if situations occurred like I have just stated.  

Maybe results reviewed every 3 years instead of the current 5 years

Edited August 3, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[charger29]

No, I'm more thinking the standard of the teams in that league are very low but they would  still get a place in the group stage and third qualifying stage.  if one of the average teams won or came second in that league with non existent champions league experience, again they would get the same place. Dnipro are only 2 years old now but they would get the group stage if they won the league.

I'm not saying the current rankings is wrong or bad, I just don't like them but is there any other way that would be fairer to all teams, especially if situations occurred like I have just stated.

Without completely changing the format the only small change I can think of is if you haven't been in the CL within the last five seasons you are automatically demoted a round. Using Dnipro finishing 1st as the example, they'd be demoted to the playoff round and 1st place of the 12th country in the access list (Young Boys) would be promoted to the group stages.

I don't agree with doing something like that btw. Would be very harsh.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

17 hours ago, charger29 said:

Without completely changing the format the only small change I can think of is if you haven't been in the CL within the last five seasons you are automatically demoted a round. Using Dnipro finishing 1st as the example, they'd be demoted to the playoff round and 1st place of the 12th country in the access list (Young Boys) would be promoted to the group stages.

I don't agree with doing something like that btw. Would be very harsh.

Yeah, I agree, nothing drastic in a big change as we know the coefficient is obviously talked about at UEFA, ideas on how to constantly to improve it, allegedly to make it fair but there is also an element of helping the big teams.

I suppose right now with the two sections before the group stage is the league path (top teams in the top coefficient leagues) and the champions path (champions of each country).  The champions path is ultimately the real European cup and its a straight knock out before they get to the group stages, so their final is ultimately to get to the group stages. To be honest I'm happy with that format, (league and champions path). The only problem as I've said, well that sticks in the mouth, is that some countries teams outside their normal big 2 teams are such a low standard that they should not get the group stage, (strangely enough, not this year, mostly top notch). 

Two teams played the other night, Basle and PSV, both excellent and you'd expect to be in the group stages but they played each other in the 2nd qualifying round and now one is out at the 2nd round, PSV. Then you have Ajax, semi finalists last season playing in the third qualifying round and play off round to get to the group stages, I'm sure their fans must be peev'd

I have to say this year the standard of teams throughout the group stage who have already qualified is top notch, weaker teams id say are Atlanta (Italy and Lille (France). 

The format if I'm being honest is fine just like to fine tune the way, maybe when the review is up, every 5 years added together is Ok but would it being less, say 3 year added together better so its all the latest results in Europe that is considered

Edited August 4, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Ross.]

On 02/08/2019 at 20:22, Bestsinceslicebread said:

First part yip, I get it

 

Second part, not meaning Celtic n Ross county.
I mean the Ukrainian league who have a group stage entry and third qualifying round entry.
if two other teams except the main two finished 1st and 2nd would the new teams still get entry at the same points even though they have not much experience in Europe and especially champions league.  if they don't go in at the stage both top Ukranians teams go in at does that mean a group stage and third qualifying entry is up for grabs.

Whoever won the Ukrainian league last season would have got direct entry to the CL on account of the league being ranked the 9th best in Europe at the time. Whether that ranking was built entirely by two teams only is irrelevant to that. The club coefficient would only affect where the club is ranking in the seedings for the group draw.

Dnipro still have a high ranking due to that run they had to the Europa League final 4 years or so back. That run will also be inflating the League coefficient.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Dnipro are shit tho.

Spoiler