Coefficientwatch

[charger29]

Scottish teams should be cuffing this sort of dross routinely. We've underperformed if anything. Certainly nothing "incredible" about a couple of wins against teams from Gibraltar, Luxembourg, Estonia, Macedonia and Finland.

Teams don't tend to "cuff" other any more though. Looking through the results this week only 8/59 games were won by more than two goals. Only two of those were won by teams away from home.

The gap between the 15th and 50th nations has been closing for a while now. There will still be shite teams in there (Kalju) but we wont be comfortably beating them as often, even if we improve our own game a bit imo.

[DukDukGoose]

23 minutes ago, charger29 said:

Teams don't tend to "cuff" other any more though. Looking through the results this week only 8/59 games were won by more than two goals. Only two of those were won by teams away from home.

The gap between the 15th and 50th nations has been closing for a while now. There will still be shite teams in there (Kalju) but we wont be comfortably beating them as often, even if we improve our own game a bit imo.

By some folks logic Wolves should have been outting 10 past Crusaders.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

 

2 hours ago, Marshmallo said:

Scottish teams should be cuffing this sort of dross routinely. We've underperformed if anything. Certainly nothing "incredible" about a couple of wins against teams from Gibraltar, Luxembourg, Estonia, Macedonia and Finland.

Reading above which is very similar to a lot of same thinking's on P&B posts and I think to myself, 'what amazing league do people think we have in Scotland'.

What gives us the right to beat anyone of the top teams from those smaller countries. In our heydays yeah but not now. We used to regularly have Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen and Dundee United fly the flag for Scotland in the latter stages of European competition, (every so often not forgetting some other Scottish teams) but not now.  No disrespect to any other teams but I only expect Rangers and Celtic to just make the group stages and just being the operative word.  Going away to any European team and winning is a great feat,

I do not know the situation with every team in Europe regarding who they are paying to play for their team but in each country there is a top team, some Scottish teams are expected to beat, some Scottish teams wont beat. its something we have to deal with and its something that once we all realise what level we are at we can then get started and stuck in to make things better, (SFA take notes ehh).

It pisses me off for example that two Russian teams go straight into the group stages and one Russian team goes into the third qualifying round. Ffs Ukraine have one team in the group stages and one straight into he third qualifying round Shakhtar Donetsk and Dynamo Kyvi , the rest of the teams in that national league you have hardly heard of but that national league is listed as a better league, better standard that our own.                         

 

57 minutes ago, charger29 said:

Teams don't tend to "cuff" other any more though. Looking through the results this week only 8/59 games were won by more than two goals. Only two of those were won by teams away from home.

The gap between the 15th and 50th nations has been closing for a while now. There will still be shite teams in there (Kalju) but we wont be comfortably beating them as often, even if we improve our own game a bit imo.

Charger29 has stated it in the most diplomatic way possible and its true.

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Marshmallo]

33 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

What gives us the right to beat anyone of the top teams from those smaller countries. In our heydays yeah but not now. We used to regularly have Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen and Dundee United fly the flag for Scotland in the latter stages of European competition, (every so often not forgetting some other Scottish teams) but not now.  No disrespect to any other teams but I only expect Rangers and Celtic to just make the group stages and just being the operative word.  Going away to any European team and winning is a great feat,

There is a middle ground between "flying the flag for Scotland in the latter stages of European competition" and "going away to any European team and winning is a great feat".

I'm not expecting Scottish teams to reach finals. I do expect them to win home and away against teams of part timers.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

There is a middle ground between "flying the flag for Scotland in the latter stages of European competition" and "going away to any European team and winning is a great feat".

I'm not expecting Scottish teams to reach finals. I do expect them to win home and away against teams of part timers.

but history tells us in Europe that, 'that', does not always happen and not only to Scottish teams but to other nations teams.

Anyone who thinks they expect to beat a part time team from Europe have a good chance of being pumped, humiliated or other.
You can have a team full of part timers but if their decision making alone on the park is top notch then you are asking for trouble.

Part time teams are more organised nowadays than they were, say 15 years ago, (I believe). harder to break down. what I have noticed about most of the part times teams I've seen play in Europe for the past few years is that they just defend and wait for a small opening that they can take home and exploit.

Doesn't matter if your part time of not, you are asked to play for ninety minutes in probably the most important game of your life so do you think for one minute that part time player will worry about being part time against a  full time player, will he feck.

My view
Celtic are through to play, (looks like), Dan Petrescu's Romanian champions which I think will be very hard to make the next round but they are good enough
Rangers scoring 2 without reply is a great result to take away. if they get through they play    FC Midtiyland, finished 2nd place 1pt behind champions and they are very experienced recently in Europe . Rangers are good enough to win but so are the Danish team, try asking Mancherster United a few years ago.
Aberdeen again, great result but I'm a bit worried with complacency and expectation once they are at home. if they get through they play  Hnk Rijeka who have a very good pedigree of experience in |recently European ties so this is a really hard one for them.

We are at the level given to us by UEFA because of our displays with the national team and domestic teams in Europe, something we have to deal with, small nations top teams will always be trouble and as long as we don't rest on our laurels then we have a chance.

[charger29]

Any fans of Aberdeen/Killie/Hibs/Hearts etc. looked at the format for 2021-2024 European competition? I don't see any mention of it in this thread. Here's the new access list:

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/58/61/42/2586142_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

With the possibility of Scotland reaching 15th in the next few seasons it'd move the 3rd place team in Scotland up from the 2nd qualifying round in Europa League 2, to the 3rd qualifying round of Europa League 1.

 

Would a fan of a 3rd place Scottish team rather two difficult rounds to get into the Europa League 1 group stages (unseeded for both rounds) or three "easier" rounds to get into the Europa League 2 group stages (possibly seeded for a quali round or two depending on the team).

 

Europa League 1 groups will look a little stronger than the usual 2nd tier competition as it'll be smaller and mainly involve teams from countries 1st-15th in the rankings. Europa League 2 groups will probably have teams you'd typically see competing in the current europa league 4th round quali's.

 

I'm expecting old firm fans to be absolutely desperate for 15th place and the three opportunities for European group stages which come with it, and yet 15th place might ruin the chance of the 3rd best Scottish team playing in Europe beyond August every season . Might be better to get 4th place in the league tbh.

 

 

[TavTastic]

23 minutes ago, charger29 said:

Any fans of Aberdeen/Killie/Hibs/Hearts etc. looked at the format for 2021-2024 European competition? I don't see any mention of it in this thread. Here's the new access list:

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/uefaorg/General/02/58/61/42/2586142_DOWNLOAD.pdf

 

With the possibility of Scotland reaching 15th in the next few seasons it'd move the 3rd place team in Scotland up from the 2nd qualifying round in Europa League 2, to the 3rd qualifying round of Europa League 1.

 

Would a fan of a 3rd place Scottish team rather two difficult rounds to get into the Europa League 1 group stages (unseeded for both rounds) or three "easier" rounds to get into the Europa League 2 group stages (possibly seeded for a quali round or two depending on the team).

 

Europa League 1 groups will look a little stronger than the usual 2nd tier competition as it'll be smaller and mainly involve teams from countries 1st-15th in the rankings. Europa League 2 groups will probably have teams you'd typically see competing in the current europa league 4th round quali's.

 

I'm expecting old firm fans to be absolutely desperate for 15th place and the three opportunities for European group stages which come with it, and yet 15th place might ruin the chance of the 3rd best Scottish team playing in Europe beyond August every season . Might be better to get 4th place in the league tbh.

 

 

If you get knocked out of EL1 qualifying you go right into next round of EL2 qualifying. So if Aberdeen (for example) lost in EL1 QR3 they'd go into the playoff round in EL2. If they win in EL1 QR3 but lost in the next round they'd go straight into the EL2 groups. It makes it much easier to qualify for a group stage not harder. 

If we got 15th then the top 3 teams would only need to win one tie to be guaranteed group stage football.

[Ginaro]

4 minutes ago, charger29 said:

Would a fan of a 3rd place team rather two difficult rounds to get into the Europa League 1 group stages (unseeded for both rounds) or three "easier" rounds to get into the Europa League 2 group stages (possibly seeded for a quali round or two depending on the team).

Someone posted this on Bert Kassies' forum, showing how things might look in 2021-22: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Av5EGqq140H7hg-sAn8nehK5QceL (it assumes all the seeds win of course)

If you follow the journey of AEK Athens, 3rd in Greece who are 15th, you can see they lose in UEL QR3 but then go into the UEL2 PO.

In terms of seeding, don't think it makes much difference - if 3rd are Aberdeen then they are unlikely to be seeded for UEL2 PO either way, so better to just play one difficult opponent and drop down rather than having to play two UEL2 rounds to get there. And surely better to enter at a later stage to have more holidays?

[charger29]

If you get knocked out of EL1 qualifying you go right into next round of EL2 qualifying. So if Aberdeen (for example) lost in EL1 QR3 they'd go into the playoff round in EL2. If they win in EL1 QR3 but lost in the next round they'd go straight into the EL2 groups. It makes it much easier to qualify for a group stage not harder. 

If we got 15th then the top 3 teams would only need to win one tie to be guaranteed group stage football.

That explains it then. I was surprised that the top 2 in the league got three chances and completely missed 3rd place getting two chances. 15th (probably aiming for the 2022/23 season) is massive then with the additional advantages it brings in the 3 tier format then?

Someone posted this on Bert Kassies' forum, showing how things might look in 2021-22: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Av5EGqq140H7hg-sAn8nehK5QceL (it assumes all the seeds win of course)

If you follow the journey of AEK Athens, 3rd in Greece who are 15th, you can see they lose in UEL QR3 but then go into the UEL2 PO.

In terms of seeding, don't think it makes much difference - if 3rd are Aberdeen then they are unlikely to be seeded for UEL2 PO either way, so better to just play one difficult opponent and drop down rather than having to play two UEL2 rounds to get there. And surely better to enter at a later stage to have more holidays?

Great link. Getting rid of the early starts would be good.

Is there no thread on the new CL/EL1/EL2 format here? It's not impossible for Celtic to lose to a decent side in CLQ3 and then another decent side in EL1PO, to then be the favourite for EL2. Rangers won't be a million miles away by 2022 either.

 

Edit: see the thread now

[TavTastic]

1 minute ago, charger29 said:

That explains it then. I was surprised that the top 2 in the league got three chances and completely missed 3rd place getting two chances. 15th (probably aiming for the 2022/23 season) is massive then with the additional advantages it brings in the 3 tier format then?

A lot of people are slagging the new format and calling the EL2 the new Intertoto but I think it's good for associations at our level.

Let's face it Scottish teams probably aren't going to even reach the semis of the Europa League ever again let alone win it. This gives us a competition that we could genuinely win plus our (3rd,4th,5th) teams have a good chance of making not only European group stages but knockout stages of European competitions.

[charger29]

A lot of people are slagging the new format and calling the EL2 the new Intertoto but I think it's good for associations at our level.
Let's face it Scottish teams probably aren't going to even reach the semis of the Europa League ever again let alone win it. This gives us a competition that we could genuinely win plus our (3rd,4th,5th) teams have a good chance of making not only European group stages but knockout stages of European competitions.

It probably is good. Hopefully the teams involved take it seriously as that'll be a big factor. Scottish teams certainly will, not so sure about 7th place from the top associations.

[GordonS]

Just to rain on the 2019 Scots in Europe parade a little... if we move up and our teams come in later, we'll probably just not win so many games and slip back down again. I think the only real reason for us gathering more points is because we're coming in at the real diddies stage, and even then Killie lost to one of them. 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

20 hours ago, GordonS said:

Just to rain on the 2019 Scots in Europe parade a little... if we move up and our teams come in later, we'll probably just not win so many games and slip back down again. I think the only real reason for us gathering more points is because we're coming in at the real diddies stage, and even then Killie lost to one of them. 

Ill join ya lol

Agreed but in reality that's the level that we are at, all be it the 1st and 2nd round, Celtic are one of the top teams most would want to avoid in the European Champions league qualifying rounds.

A little can be said for Rangers at a lesser extent in the Europa League the 3rd qualifying round is where it usually gets really tricky, in both cups. The luck of the draw also means everything is these cups until the group stages

Edited July 29, 2019 by Bestsinceslicebread

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Just to rain on the 2019 Scots in Europe parade a little... if we move up and our teams come in later, we'll probably just not win so many games and slip back down again. I think the only real reason for us gathering more points is because we're coming in at the real diddies stage, and even then Killie lost to one of them. 

This year's ranking won't be used for qualifying places until 2021-22 when the 3rd UEFA competition begins. Anywhere from 18th-28th would represent the same number of qualifying games. 16th and 17th only benefits the league champion by starting the CL at a later round. Which would be 2pts or 0.5 overall missing at most if the champion can avoid a Red Imps type situation. So a good season won't make much difference.

The bigger issue with getting to the supposed promised land of 15th and two CL spots again isn't the loss of qualifers to pick up easy points. It's the addition of a 5th European side that would see the ranking points divided by 5 instead of 4.

[charger29]

 

 

 

The bigger issue with getting to the supposed promised land of 15th and two CL spots again isn't the loss of qualifers to pick up easy points. It's the addition of a 5th European side that would see the ranking points divided by 5 instead of 4.

 

At least it's (possibly) coming at at a time when - instead of a combined four chances to reach the groups stages for 1st, 2nd & 3rd/SCWin - there'll be eight chances between them. That is some good timing.

Very unlikely to get 15th for 2021 though. I can't see Cyprus, Greece Switzerland etc. all collapsing at once.

 

[d31]

Would be brilliant for Aberdeen to be regularly in this Europa 2 groups and as long as you pulled one big name in the groups no one is caring if the other two are a Hadjuk Split, Dinamo Tblisi, Levski Sofia etc.

Personally I don't think it would be good for Scottish Football to have two spots in Champions League

[Ginaro]

Crucial win for Switzerland with Basel beating PSV on away goals, will be favourites against Austrian club LASK for a place in the UCL PO round (guaranteed UEL group stage). Depends on the draw - likely to be either Porto or Dynamo Kiev for a UCL group spot.

Doesn't mean anything but Celtic's win puts us 1st for points this season.

[Antony]

 

33 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Crucial win for Switzerland with Basel beating PSV on away goals, will be favourites against Austrian club LASK for a place in the UCL PO round (guaranteed UEL group stage). Depends on the draw - likely to be either Porto or Dynamo Kiev for a UCL group spot.

Doesn't mean anything but Celtic's win puts us 1st for points this season.

It does mean something. It means we are the best league in Europe this season. 

[wastecoatwilly]

But it looks great
 

1	Scotland 4 teams		10	1	1	0	0	0	0	10.5	2.625
27	Celtic	CL	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	4.0	not out
29	Glasgow Rangers	EL	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.0	not out
41	Aberdeen	EL	2	1	0	0	0	0	0	2.5	not out
111	Kilmarnock	EL	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1.0

 

		Cup	qW	qD	qL	#W	#D	#L	Bonus	Points	Average
2	England 7 teams		1	0	0	0	0	0	16	17.0	2.428
1	Liverpool	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Chelsea	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Manchester City	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Tottenham Hotspur	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
97	Wolverhampton Wanderers	EL	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.0	not out
167	Arsenal	EL	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	not out
167	Manchester United	EL	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	not out

We've took full advantage of the early rounds now the real game starts.
Q3 will be tough,having had 4 games our teams should be up to speed no excuses. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by wastecoatwilly

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

But it looks great
 

1	Scotland 4 teams		10	1	1	0	0	0	0	10.5	2.625
27	Celtic	CL	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	4.0	not out
29	Glasgow Rangers	EL	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	3.0	not out
41	Aberdeen	EL	2	1	0	0	0	0	0	2.5	not out
111	Kilmarnock	EL	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	1.0

 

		Cup	qW	qD	qL	#W	#D	#L	Bonus	Points	Average
2	England 7 teams		1	0	0	0	0	0	16	17.0	2.428
1	Liverpool	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Chelsea	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Manchester City	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
1	Tottenham Hotspur	CL	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	4.0	not out
97	Wolverhampton Wanderers	EL	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.0	not out
167	Arsenal	EL	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	not out
167	Manchester United	EL	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0.0	not out

We've took full advantage of the early rounds now the real game starts.
Q3 will be tough,having had 4 games our teams should be up to speed no excuses. 

Yes agreed, obviously Killie was a shocker but if they were going to go out at least they won a game for a point
The rustiness should be away, I watched the Aberdeen game against the Finish team, winning 2.1 and you could see they are starting to gel although they need to be way better if that want to make the group stages

Anyways Q3 is harder, the benefits are Celtic are definitely favourites v Cluj and both Teams that Rangers and Aberdeen could face if they both get through haven't played nay games in Europe yet although they will be two toughies without doubt. Harder round is the Playoff round, teams are good enough to beat any teams so luck is a bit. If both Rangers and Aberdeen get through, no one knows if they will be seeded yet so that will make the difference.

its all ifs and buts so tonight, both teams just go out and win