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Follow Following to Title 56. The Rangers Season 2021/22


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14 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

Only by adding the b. That’s what’s offensive. 
 

You can’t start banning words because adding ‘b*****d’ to the end makes them offensive. Should we ban the word baldy, or ginger, or dundonian etc. 

That's generally what the debate is about though, is people using terms in an offensive manner. When Rangers fans use the F word, Celtic fans use the H word, racists use the N word etc. it is not simply stating a fact - it's use is intended to be offensive by attacking a protected characteristic (in some instances - I accept H** is not always used attached to religion).

Insulting someone by calling them baldy, ginger or Dundonian while offensive, is not illegal because they are not protected characteristics.

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9 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

If it’s not offensive? If it’s word Celtic fans use to describe themselves, like a badge of honour for some, then why remove it? 
 

I get it if rangers fans are offended by *** and some have deemed it sectarian then it should be banned as not to cause offence, but no one I’ve ever known has been offended by f*****. 

There’s loads of examples of a group of people using a word to describe themselves being ok, but other groups using it not being ok because of the different context in which it’s used. The N word, for one. Or queer, where LGBT+ people identifying as queer is obviously fine, but if I started calling someone a queer, then that’s not fine.

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3 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

I've got no problem with Celtic fans embracing the F word I don't see it as offensive but it depicts a certain race like the P word for the corner shop guy that's where the ignorance is plus the derogatory nature.

The ‘P’ word itself is racist, 

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For me the key thing is that of all the words listed and debated as part of whataboutery in this thread, only one of the many offensive words listed concerns something which people chose to be. That is the 'h' word which describes people who chose to be Rangers fans.  

The recent events we have seen both online and on the streets of Glasgow are not some strange offshoot of the clubs support but are the manifestation of the club's core identity. The people marching through Glasgow or singing on buses quite literally are acting as Rangers have conditioned them to act. Although the club does the bare minimum to push back for PR reasons now, they have fostered and encouraged that behavior over decades. 

People who make the decision to be Rangers fans notwithstanding that deserve to be castigated, and I find it particularly offensive that people would try to equate the usage of a word which denotes that choice with those which are used to attack people for their inherent characteristics such as race, ethnicity (and in the Scottish historical context Irish Catholic is an ethnicity) or sexual preference, particularly where those characteristics relate to minorities.

The distinction I make above is entirely consistent with there being court judgments against people using the 'h' word, as despite Kincardine's misguided sophistry, which misses much of the relevant points entirely, there is in fact importance in the intent and meaning of the 'perpetrator'. Those individuals cautioned/charged for its use will have been deemed to have been using it for the religious connotation and not the disgusting election to be a Rangers fan. In such circumstances there being legal consequences is not altogether unreasonable, although I again think a direct equivalence between the majority and minority positions is very dangerous. This also, in my opinion, further explains Nil by Mouth's position, in addition to the points made previously about them making an effort to be balanced for the greater good.

I am also a little uneasy with some of Drew Brees' contentions for the same reason, which is not the same as saying they are necessarily wrong.

That said, Scottish fitba discourse would be in a much better position if people could just avoid the 'h' word altogether, given the evident complications which rightly or wrongly follow.  As the word should describe only Rangers fans and not any religious connotation, people could substitute it with, for example, 'dirty bigot b*****d' and obtain the same meaning.

I agree with most of what AJF has said, although I can sense there remains one point we disagree on.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Drew Brees said:

Nah, not buying it. The ‘P’ word masquerades as an abbreviation but has a history of hate.. Among many British Asians, the ‘P’ word is thought of as the pinnacle of language which restricted the lives of Asians parents and grandparents in the latter half of the 20th century in the uk. Never heard a bad word said about ******. 

Ill try to put it another way,not all Celtic fans are or have Irish connections so they can't be known by the F word,not all corner shop guys are known by the P word because they are from different countries.
Because you have a corner shop or wear a Celtic top the P and F words are your pigeon hole or label.
If you own a corner shop and your from India the P word is offensive just the same as being a Celtic fan that is not Irish, the xenophobic nature and the ignorance is the same.
See people for who they are not for who you want them to be.

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12 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Ill try to put it another way,not all Celtic fans are or have Irish connections so they can't be known by the F word,not all corner shop guys are known by the P word because they are from different countries.
Because you have a corner shop or wear a Celtic top the P and F words are your pigeon hole or label.
If you own a corner shop and your from India the P word is offensive just the same as being a Celtic fan that is not Irish, the xenophobic nature and the ignorance is the same.
See people for who they are not for who you want them to be.

I completely agree with you that using the P word against, e.g. an Indian person is repugnant racism, but Celtic fans aren't a protected characteristic either. 

The problem with what we saw recently in Glasgow and (in my opinion from the outside) the F word in general is that it does not connotate celtic fans but rather does connotate the protected characteristic of historical minority ethno/religious/nationality, in stark contrast to all but the most desperate use of the H word. 

The H word should be dropped, but its usage is not the same as the others

 

Edited by FrankChickens1
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6 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

I’ll put it another way, f***** is not offensive, to anyone. P*** is offensive to everyone, or at least it should be, the people who don’t find it offensive are the problem. I can’t believe you can even compare the 2 given the history of the P word. 

This is not about playground comparisons whether one word is worse than another.
It's about the tolerance and acceptance of a word that can or can't be used.
Whether you or I think it's offensive or not. 

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2 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

I’m just trying to work out why you’d want it banned when I’ve never known a single Celtic fan to be offended by it. Most embrace it  

I'm not Irish so the word itself doesn't really have any meaning to me unless used in reference to my religion however if we are saying the word itself doesn't cause offence then this opens it up to challenge by Rangers fans who are castigated for using it everytime the Billy Boys is belted out and there are Celtic fans offended by that from what i can gather as its regularly called out everytime its sung. 

I do understand what you mean though i work with a guy from South Africa who everytime he sees me will greet my with "My N****" It's almost a term of endearment however despite my race i still find myself clenching my teeth a little hoping no one overhears despite the fact neither of us are white.

 

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20 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

The ‘up to our knees in _____ blood’ would be offensive with most whatever word you inserted in there, doesn’t mean the word itself is offensive. 
 

I did a search on The Huddleboard’ for threads with F***** in the title, threw up 5 pages of thread titles ranging from Show a pic of your F***** dog, The ****** lamppost in Amsterdam, How F***** are you? Favourite ***** song. Etc etc etc. Wish I’d never entered this debate but no one is convincing me that F***** is offensive in the same way *** is, or in Willys case, P***, not even close. 

It’s in an interesting angle . If it is the blood part that is the offensive part . Would that still hold the same clout if fans were singing simply just “Celtic blood” like many other teams have traditionally sung about their rivals to the tune . I have always thought from an outsider looking in Dundee’s version would seem the most controversial if you were someone who had no idea about the history and nicknames of Scottish football teams

 

no idea if Dundee fans still sing the tune regularly or if it has just naturally died out from their support . I know killie fans still sing it and reference Ayr

Edited by Forever_blueco
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59 minutes ago, Drew Brees said:

No idea tbh, I assumed it was the idea of being up to their knees in blood that gave off a different meaning that offended some, but as I said, no idea. I’ve never been offended by any song sung at the football, except maybe a couple about deceased players etc. The famine song doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I get more offended with the IRA songs sung by the younger generation at Celtic park than anything sung at ibrox. 

I think the issue revolves around the accepted notion that when Rangers fans reference the F word they mean Catholics, or more recently Irish Catholics with the Scottish Governments move towards phrases like anti-Irish racism rather than using the term sectarianism.

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14 minutes ago, AJF said:

I think the issue revolves around the accepted notion that when Rangers fans reference the F word they mean Catholics, or more recently Irish Catholics with the Scottish Governments move towards phrases like anti-Irish racism rather than using the term sectarianism.

This is the point I was making about the P word more about the race than the religion both on dangerous ground. 

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I call my wife a wee *** regularly. (not short for honey but cos she used to like the rangers)
 She honestly doesn’t give a f**k and she’s a wee proddie.
Case closed.
 


Rangers fans on here currently getting hosed 4-0 but this clanger is giving them a lifeline
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I see Sean McDonald who does the Blethered podcast is the new target. I can understand the rationale in going for the Daily Record given they went after H&H for similar stuff, but it's starting to get a bit weird now. I think Sean done some sort video for the Daily Record a while ago so he's been taken down by association, even though he hasn't commented on this whole thing at all. Folk have contacted the BBC as well as St Lukes and other venues where he's due to host a live show so he could be in a bit of bother career wise after this. Few of the screenshots do look a bit dodgy although i'm not sure what ones are genuine at this point. 

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11 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 


Rangers fans on here currently getting hosed 4-0 but this clanger is giving them a lifeline

 

OK, I’ll take it back. I call her a wee *** and I’ll pretend she’s raging about it. Better? 

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25 minutes ago, Fratelli said:

I see Sean McDonald who does the Blethered podcast is the new target. I can understand the rationale in going for the Daily Record given they went after H&H for similar stuff, but it's starting to get a bit weird now. I think Sean done some sort video for the Daily Record a while ago so he's been taken down by association, even though he hasn't commented on this whole thing at all. Folk have contacted the BBC as well as St Lukes and other venues where he's due to host a live show so he could be in a bit of bother career wise after this. Few of the screenshots do look a bit dodgy although i'm not sure what ones are genuine at this point. 

We can probably guess why he was being targeted, he “wan a them”

That’s all they need 

Edit: Not I can see why they’ve put so much time and effort into the big lie that the H word is anti protestant.

Not because they feel discriminated against, so they could weaponise it like we have been seeing over the last few days

Edited by Clown Job
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