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[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Your idea of 'addressing' the point is to repeatedly assert as axiomatic and unquestionable that 'what I say is a slur against me is a slur against me'.

That's the principle that the entire hate speech movement in the UK - which has been largely successful - is based on.  The subject of the slur doesn't have to justify why it's a slur.

You, OTOH, place the onus on blacks and jews (eg) to explain themselves.  As you said, "neither do I let jews, black people...choose".

That's a statement that is breathtakingly ignorant.

[Border Reiver]

Of course I have.  I have never hidden that.  As I said, "I've never worn a sash and don't know anyone who has".

Sorry for not knowing the correct term for the orange ribbon of bigotry. I will let you get back to supping cheep liquor from your reproduction loving cup

[Aim Here]

12 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

That's the principle that the entire hate speech movement in the UK - which has been largely successful - is based on.  The subject of the slur doesn't have to justify why it's a slur.

That's clearly bollocks though.

It's what groups like Rangers fans, like TERFs, like neo-Nazis, and like supporters of a jewish ethno-state would want to be true, because if it was, they could weaponize hate speech movement for themselves - which is exactly what you're trying to do right now, and what I'm not letting you do because I'm not a moron.

12 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

You, OTOH, place the onus on blacks and jews (eg) to explain themselves.  As you said, "neither do I let jews, black people...choose".

And the case of jews is a case in point exactly why - there is a part of the pro-Israel movement that wants to define antisemitism so that anyone refusing to support the existence of 'a Jewish state' is an anti-semite. That immediately tars people opposed to states - such as all anarchists - as well as people opposed to states founded on ethnic or religious principles - which is all decent people, really - as antisemites, despite the fact that they obviously aren't.

So yes - jews, and blacks - like absolutely every other group, including Rangers fans - don't get a free pass on what is a slur against their particular group.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Aim Here

[Theyellowbox]

13 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Is this true? I haven't seen a single Rangers fan on this thread, including several supposedly sensible ones, condemn the behaviour of the Heart and Hand guys, and disappointingly several very decent folk that I follow on Twitter had nothing to say about the racist singing last weekend either. It seems to be tolerated at the very least.

The last day or so has also exposed a large number of grubby and sinister little bunch of oddballs as part of the online Rangers support.

Agree, if you go by online it isn't true, but in person seems otherwise.

As you say, the last couple of days have lifted the lid in quite a few non isolated views.

[The_Kincardine]

18 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

So yes - jews, and blacks - like absolutely every other group, including Rangers fans - don't get a free pass on what is a slur against their particular group.

That's exactly what they get - which is excellent - and we've agreed this idea since before you were born.  It has been seminal in taking the justification for unacceptable language away from those who receive it.

That you want to reverse this principle is breathtakingly ignorant.

11 minutes ago, Dolf said:

So we can add pedantry to your tedious bigotry

My pedantry is legend.

You were unable to find me calling 'h.u.n' sectarian today.  Go on another futile quest and explore my bigotry.  You'll find f**k all.

[thepundit]

I don’t listen to the Heart in Hand podcast and if Rangers decided not to allow them access to interviews and feed them exclusives etc then they’ve only themselves to blame. 

Was the motivation for the Daily Record’s article the fact they are genuinely outraged by historic tweets from contributors to the podcast or was it a hit piece due to the Record no longer getting interviews/stories and that their “Exclusives!” are quickly rubbished by fan groups more ‘in the know’?… I honestly don’t know but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was the latter.

Did the Record calculate that it would impact Celtic fans groups/podcasts who enjoy similar access? And that maybe both clubs will now return to the newspaper journalists as before?..

Will these outlets hold their own contributors to the same standards as journo after journo is being called out and many are now deleting/protecting their tweets?….

One things for sure, they should all know better and do better in future regardless of what team or political party they support.

[Clown Job]

It always impresses me how RFC fans can always turn things around to make it look like they’re the real victims in all of this.

When you hire a bigot as PR chief, bring out orange kits, welcome misogynist racists as your official partners

It can’t really be surprised it emboldened that element of the fan base.

That’s why they’re upset, they can’t handle the fact anti Irish/ catholic bigotry is slowly starting to become unacceptable in Scottish society 

Everything that has happened in the last few weeks isn’t the fault of the Daily Record, SFA, Neil Doncaster, Celtic, Etc…

It’s squarely the fault of the bigots and the bigot enablers 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Clown Job

[Stellaboz]

Awww poor Rangers, always the victim.

[Border Reiver]

My pedantry is legend.
You were unable to find me calling 'h.u.n' sectarian today.  Go on another futile quest and explore my bigotry.  You'll find f**k all.

You are/were a member of the LOL that you don’t hide/revel in therefore bigotry. Also you spent a night reporting people typing four * symbols to div for I’d guess sectarian connotations

[The_Kincardine]

Just now, Border Reiver said:

You are/were a member of the LOL that you don’t hide/revel in therefore bigotry. Also you spent a night reporting people typing four * symbols to div for I’d guess sectarian connotations

I did.  I know this annoys some people.

[Border Reiver]

I did.  I know this annoys some people.

Think the only person it annoyed was div

[Aim Here]

35 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

That's exactly what they get - which is excellent - and we've agreed this idea since before you were born.

No we haven't. The brouhaha over the IHRA definition of antisemitism is the case in point - where a bunch of bad-faith Israeli supporters are controversially weaponising the language against hate speech for the purpose of coercing support for Israel as a Jewish state. And again, the other cases I mentioned - far right fascists claiming that criticism of them is anti-white racism or 'white genocide', transphobes claiming the term 'TERF' is a slur - put the lie to this notion. Nobody accepts these cases as genuine hate-speech grievances. Of course, you've not addressed whether you actually support these instances of people applying the logical consequences of this idea you espouse in support of racism and bigotry. Instead you're insisting on concentrating on 'jews and blacks' precisely because you want to deflect from the very real problems I'm pointing out in that idea. The idea is that you can weaponise any mention of those groups in order to insinuate that I'm the bigot. And it won't work, because I'm not going to fall into that stupid trap. Besides, guess which one of us two is the one who proudly sported a confederate flag avatar in the past? Your touching concern about hate speech against black people seems to be newly minted...

It's clear that the hate speech movement is being appropriated by bigots - some groups of Rangers fans included - as a way of trying to deflect criticism - or even to justify their own bigotry, on the principle of 'I get to call themmuns tarriers, just so long as I can quote one of them calling Rangers fans ****'. I've even seen the usual faux-outrage over the '***' term being used by online Rangers fans in the exact same sentence as the epithet '*****s' applied to catholics. It's obvious to everyone watching that this was never an honest opposition to hate speech, it's just a whataboutery tactic. What's the odds that the two Heart and Hand podcasters who resigned this week expressed outrage at the use of the '***' term at some point in their social media careers?

You know all this of course. I'm not sure that anything that you spit out on here is an honest expression of your views.

Edited September 4, 2021 by Aim Here

[8MileBU]

38 minutes ago, thepundit said:

I don’t listen to the Heart in Hand podcast and if Rangers decided not to allow them access to interviews and feed them exclusives etc then they’ve only themselves to blame. 

Was the motivation for the Daily Record’s article the fact they are genuinely outraged by historic tweets from contributors to the podcast or was it a hit piece due to the Record no longer getting interviews/stories and that their “Exclusives!” are quickly rubbished by fan groups more ‘in the know’?… I honestly don’t know but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was the latter.

Did the Record calculate that it would impact Celtic fans groups/podcasts who enjoy similar access? And that maybe both clubs will now return to the newspaper journalists as before?..

Will these outlets hold their own contributors to the same standards as journo after journo is being called out and many are now deleting/protecting their tweets?….

One things for sure, they should all know better and do better in future regardless of what team or political party they support.

I think whether you’re a Rangers fan or a fan of another club you simply need to switch off your feelings toward Rangers either way, broaden your outlook and remind yourself that tabloid newspapers are absolute gutter rags full of utter pish from front page to back.

Yes, their staff may truly despise Rangers, fair fux, but how much of that is borne of bitterness and the need for self preservation? There’s a generation of tabloid readers left before the red-tops go full “Blockbuster Video” and become obsolete IMO. 

Other football clubs and their fans need to wake up and realise that tabloid journos are simply a lifeform short of parasites and a drain on time and resources. Despite being on the anti-Rangers bandwagon just now, would the tabloid journos or “MSM” hesitate to peddle any dirt they could dig up on your club, it’s staff or associates if it were to sell a rag or two? 

Hating Rangers is fair game, but so is hating the tabloids, their fickle “allegiance” and their real agenda. Every other club out there would be doing well to adopt somewhat of a similar stance as Rangers by starting to be more strict in vetting who comes in and managing their own media output and partners.

Edited September 4, 2021 by 8MileBU

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, The_Kincardine said:

That, "The subject of the abuse doesn't have to justify their distaste' has been a principle for at least 50 years and is an excellent maxim.

Also clearly not true as virtually any single actually persecuted group* can attest to.

 

*Sorry but bald middle aged men called William don't fall under any protected characteristics

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

You know all this of course. I'm not sure that anything that you spit out on here is an honest expression of your views.

That it's up to the abuser to justify their language rather than the abused is, of course, an honest expression of my views.

That you rail against this notion is very surprising.

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Also clearly not true as virtually any single actually persecuted group* can attest to.

It clearly is true - and has been for a long time.  

[Aim Here]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

That it's up to the abuser to justify their language rather than the abused is, of course, an honest expression of my views.

That you rail against this notion is very surprising.

So I suppose I can take from that that you honestly think I shouldn't be using the word 'TERF' to describe transphobic bigots.

And that you think I shouldn't go to any more antifascist protests because the people I protest against call me anti-white?

Just checking.

 

[Aim Here]

8 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

Hating Rangers is fair game, but so is hating the tabloids, their fickle “allegiance” and their real agenda. Every other club out there would be doing well to adopt somewhat of a similar stance as Rangers by starting to be more strict in vetting who comes in and managing their own media output and partners.

I think that after this week, almost all impartial observers would be in agreement that Rangers' PR strategy of ignoring tabloid journalists, trying to dictate to the BBC who their journalists should be, and farming their outreach work to three snidey middle-aged bigots has been a bit of a public relations disaster. I don't see the other 41 league clubs following suit anytime soon.

[NotThePars]

3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

It clearly is true - and has been for a long time.  

It isn't and while it's clear you're on one of your usual rip-roaring hilarious bad faith trolling trips it's worth reiterating that you're chatting shit to mask that you don't have an argument here. You can't just point at words that you don't like and declare them to be hateful slurs that are out of bounds and suggesting that every other marginalised group has been able to do that without decades of painful work to recognise that very specific terms have historical, legal and cultural contexts which add weight to their use is remarkably even more boneheaded than the snide dismissals and whataboutery the other supporters of your team have engaged in. Good going!

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

So I suppose I can take from that that you honestly think I shouldn't be using the word 'TERF' to describe transphobic bigots.

The H Bomb is simply unacceptable, whatever analogies you care to use.

4 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

It isn't and while it's clear you're on one of your usual rip-roaring hilarious bad faith trolling trips.

The H Bomb is simply unacceptable, whether you think I'm a troll or not.