Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, The Marly said:

What's your issue with Tommy, Random? I get what you're saying about last season's start vs this season's, but the fact is Tommy turned it round and got us into the top six.
Callum looks to be a very good coach from what I've seen so far and I believe he'll prove that in the future. However that doesn't mean Tommy wasn't excellent for Saints.

No issue at all, he's quite clearly the best manager we've ever had, and id be surprised if any manager ever matches him in terms of sustained success again.

I just don't believe he was flawless, nor do I believe its fair to compare him and Davidson, in terms of results/performances, at all. Mainly because, naturally, you only use TWs final few seasons worth of performances as a comparison, so you're comparing a performance of a squad built by a manager who understands his players completely v a manager whos had his squad for about 6 months and has rarely had a full strength side.

4 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Don't think anyone has forgotten about any flaws. They've just said they preferred that teams football as they believe it had much more substance. 

My memory is of the vast majority of fans complaining TWs home performances were awful and were putting folk off going to games. Easy to say in retrospect it was fine, but I doubt folk were walking away from, for example, the 1-0 loss to Kilmarnock last season without moaning about it. I don't see the moans today being any different to that, but since its a new manager its suddenly a major issue.

Davidson needs time.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

1 hour ago, The Marly said:

Given the impact Covid has had on the budget etc, I won't be judging Davidson on this season tbh. As long as we stay up I will be happy enough. As you say, don't think anyone has forgotten Tommy's flaws. I just think the good outweighed the bad with him. I certainly don't think the football was as bad as some are trying to make out.
Callum was always going to be compared to TW and I'm sure he'd have known that when he took the job.

For me it's not so much people hating Callum or his football and more how infuriatingly frustrating the team is. 

I think we make things hard for ourselves with some decisions in final third and the lack of conviction in front of goal makes me

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[PauloPerth]

4 hours ago, tree house tam said:

There were several players that need blamed before we should even consider Clark. Folk saying we have a decent defence are kidding themselves on. We have okay defenders who should know the system by now but we are being undone by simple balls through and players being out of position. It's not good enough.

Exactly.  Watch McCart just before the ball is played over the top for Robinson to run onto. Instead of staying tight, he decides to make a run wide away from the Livi striker to look for the ball off May.  May is obviously the main culprit for again cheaply losing possession, but neither centre back cover themself in glory there as either McCart has to sit in, or Gordon has to get over to cover Robinson when McCart moves away from him.  From 4:00 here:

 

[PauloPerth]

2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Glad to see people are seeing what I've been seeing all season. Felt like I was watching a different team to what everyone else was in the home matches at times.

A few of us have been saying it for a while Kyle.

[tree house tam]

23 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Exactly.  Watch McCart just before the ball is played over the top for Robinson to run onto. Instead of staying tight, he decides to make a run wide away from the Livi striker to look for the ball off May.  May is obviously the main culprit for again cheaply losing possession, but neither centre back cover themself in glory there as either McCart has to sit in, or Gordon has to get over to cover Robinson when McCart moves away from him.  From 4:00 here:

 

I noticed it all on Saturday pal, not wanting to put myself through that shite again, it'll just enrage me.

May seems to have taken over from MOH in terms of losing the ball and basically creating a chance for the opposition. 

[RandomGuy.]

So tempting...

[The Saintee]

43 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

So tempting...

Do it. You know he'll bite. He's thick as mince.

Edited December 14, 2020 by The Saintee

[Mr Heliums]

50 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

So tempting...

Love the irony that Hibs weren't even mentioned.

[nelsjfc]

In recent games against United and Livi, I think we've seen sides know exactly how we are going to play and set out to counter-act it. It was always going to happen and its something Wright had great success doing to other sides (McNamara's United, McCann's Dundee etc). I hate the phrase, but I think it becomes a case of "trust the process". That's why it was a bit disappointing to see the way the game went on Saturday, particularly first half.

 

There's things undoubtedly to be worked on, defending set-pieces for a start, but I can't see Davidson changing and the inference seems to be the players are buying into it too. Despite all the frustration, I've enjoyed watching us play this season. My main worry is what feels like a lack of mental toughness that we had under Wright.

 

And agree Clark wasn't great at the second goal. Started to come and stops leaving him in an awkward position without narrowing the angle. As said though, the goal was far from his fault. It was a goal indicative of the current issues; bad decision by attackers then two defenders not concentrating on defending because we had the ball.

 

 

[Steve McQueen]

3pm on a weekday?

[nelsjfc]

3pm on a weekday?

Aye, total pain in the arse.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

So tempting...

He really is a strange one Vine. 

As a player on the park he was liked by fans as he played well for us. 

Always thought he wasn't offered a new deal because of the alleged off field stuff that if true understandably the chairman wasn't going to be overly happy about. 

Why not then just come out and say the chairman didn't want me around then instead of the shite he did come out with as all that did was make himself look like a dick and put himself under pressure. 

I know I'm expecting some common sense from a man with none though...

[Kyle]

5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

No issue at all, he's quite clearly the best manager we've ever had, and id be surprised if any manager ever matches him in terms of sustained success again.

I just don't believe he was flawless, nor do I believe its fair to compare him and Davidson, in terms of results/performances, at all. Mainly because, naturally, you only use TWs final few seasons worth of performances as a comparison, so you're comparing a performance of a squad built by a manager who understands his players completely v a manager whos had his squad for about 6 months and has rarely had a full strength side.

My memory is of the vast majority of fans complaining TWs home performances were awful and were putting folk off going to games. Easy to say in retrospect it was fine, but I doubt folk were walking away from, for example, the 1-0 loss to Kilmarnock last season without moaning about it. I don't see the moans today being any different to that, but since its a new manager its suddenly a major issue.

Davidson needs time.

The previous post to this one is a comparison of results between the 1st 9 home games of last season vs this season, so you're saying its ok to compare results but not the team's performance? I imagine that's the worst home run Wright had in 7 years and Davidson is still only 1 point better off than it as well, despite the general performance level being at a much higher standard than Wright's first 9 home games last season.

I'm certainly not calling for Davidson's head and I'm of a similar mind to The Marly on this. Davidson should get this season given everything that is going on, only point I might get twitchy is if we're in the bottom 2 towards the time of the split.

I also agree that we've gone from dominating games and playing well and not taking advantage of that to the opposition manager outmanoeuvring Davidson in a few homes now. I think we need to adapt  - the results and goal return were poor when teams weren't sure what to expect, I can't see it getting any better now that its pretty obvious how we'll line up and what we'll try and do in every game. We don't hurt teams enough, we're not creative and, aside from some pretty passing patterns up the wings, we don't give defenders much to think about either. The manager needs to change that.

 

 

[Mr Heliums]

13 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

No issue at all, he's quite clearly the best manager we've ever had

Tommy Wright is unarguably the most successful manager we've had domestically, but no way is he quite clearly the best. That's absolutely up for debate. Willie Ormond for one built a better team playing better football in a better league.

[RandomGuy.]

8 hours ago, Kyle said:

the results and goal return were poor when teams weren't sure what to expect.

But neither did our players. They'll still be learning this system. Guess the argument is whether Davidson shouldve waited a bit to "unleash" it, but we were always going to struggle at some point as they adapt to it since he seems committed to it. A lot of the goals we concede are individual mistakes. Maybe TW just set us up so that was less likely? Davidson will be learning all the time.

Fwiw, if you're being harsh, we're probably 5/6 players away from being good enough to play the 5-2-3 against teams sitting deep. Not enough players good enough on the ball, not enough players good enough in the air, not enough strong runners.

1 minute ago, Mr Heliums said:

Tommy Wright is unarguably the most successful manager we've had domestically, but no way is he quite clearly the best. That's absolutely up for debate. Willie Ormond for one built a better team playing better football in a better league.

I never saw an Ormond team tbh, should probably add "in my lifetime" next time I make that claim tbh.

[tree house tam]

18 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

Willie Ormond for one built a better team playing better football in a better league.

As you say, debatable. 

[PauloPerth]

34 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Fwiw, if you're being harsh, we're probably 5/6 players away from being good enough to play the 5-2-3 against teams sitting deep. Not enough players good enough on the ball, not enough players good enough in the air, not enough strong runners.

The thing we miss most when up against teams sitting in is a player who can beat an opponent 1 v1.  We pass around and in front of teams a lot without hurting them as we all know.  A Swanson or Kennedy to create space for a shot/ cross or open up space to play in a teammate.

I think getting MOH fit and firing, as he was against Motherwell in the cup game, makes a big difference.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, PauloPerth said:

The thing we miss most when up against teams sitting in is a player who can beat an opponent 1 v1.  

Yup. We need that on the right, and ideally your WBs need to be able to do it too. Neither of ours can beat their direct opponent without needing to link up with someone, IMO.

Wotherspoon can beat men but I don't think he can do it at pace.

[Kyle]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

But neither did our players. They'll still be learning this system. Guess the argument is whether Davidson shouldve waited a bit to "unleash" it, but we were always going to struggle at some point as they adapt to it since he seems committed to it. A lot of the goals we concede are individual mistakes. Maybe TW just set us up so that was less likely? Davidson will be learning all the time.

Fwiw, if you're being harsh, we're probably 5/6 players away from being good enough to play the 5-2-3 against teams sitting deep. Not enough players good enough on the ball, not enough players good enough in the air, not enough strong runners.

I never saw an Ormond team tbh, should probably add "in my lifetime" next time I make that claim tbh.

If we're 5 or 6 players away from being able to in a shape then we shouldn't be playing it and we should do what we've done for years - play to our strengths and build from that. It's clear the 5-2-3 works for us away from home because we're afforded more room in behind, but it's equally clear that it doesn't work at home. All the pretty patterns in the world don't change the fact we've managed 3 goals from open play in 10 matches against top flight teams at home this season. I hope Davidson is learning, but he seems to be pretty stubbornly sticking to his guns and hoping things change at home, and opposition managers have realised that as well.

McInnes' post match interview against us - our first home game - he set out what we were going to do and how he and his team successfully beat it, in about 7 seconds.

 

[Mr Heliums]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I never saw an Ormond team tbh, should probably add "in my lifetime" next time I make that claim tbh.

Even then, difficult to measure because everyone will see through a different lens and apply different criteria. And the context can't be compared. How do you measure Wright against Totten, who took us from the bottom of Scottish football (do you take marks off Wright for inheriting a team already playing European football)? Do you measure quality of football (I thought Lomas's teams were more exciting). Do you wonder what history might have made of things if we'd had a less favourable cup draw in 2014 (or to put it another way would we think of McInnes if we'd got past a better quality Rangers side in that semi-final penalty shoot-out years before)? It's not something you can answer definitively.

As for success, no question. On domestic results – things you can actually measure – Wright wins.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Mr Heliums