Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, FrankChickens1 said:

2 different spl clubs have thought he was worth a punt. 

I don't think Dundee need to be concerned. 

2 top flight clubs have given him a season before dumping him into their reserve side and letting him leave for nothing...

[FrankChickens1]

Again, no reason for a team of Dundee level to be concerned 

[Mr Heliums]

9 hours ago, Kyle said:

I always thought we’d get two years out of him and he’d leave us for a bigger club and for more money. He’s been a bit of a mercenary his whole career really. The fact we didn’t make a serious attempt to keep him until the end of December is a far bigger issue. 

Don't understand this settled narrative that Saints didn't bother trying to keep Kennedy until it was too late. It doesn't make sense. Kennedy was our best player last season and we've always tried to re-sign players.  What reason was there not to do the same with Kennedy? The answer, I suspect, is that he wouldn't talk to us, because he knew he'd get better offers. We wouldn't stand a chance of keeping Kennedy when bigger clubs were interested. He wasn't going to stay for the money – or the atmosphere.

Swanson pulled the same 'Saints aren't offering me a deal' nonsense around Christmas a couple of years ago. I expect it was similar this time around. 

 

PS: I'm not Steve Brown.

[Doctor]

8 hours ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Conceded 7 without him in those two games too, actually averaging slightly better with him in for those games than without him if you wanna look at it statistically. A shite loanee will contribute as much as the rest of the dross you can bring in. Or we ignore those games as being two occasions you bent the knee to the OF, which is becoming quite the tradition in Perth.

Lol, dundee stinks and is literally only good for buying dope and shagging mums 

[tree house tam]

Callachan is like a better, less  jail bait Gowser,  he'll do fine in Dundee and might just scrape them a play off place.

[perthsaint1977]

Don't understand this settled narrative that Saints didn't bother trying to keep Kennedy until it was too late. It doesn't make sense. Kennedy was our best player last season and we've always tried to re-sign players.  What reason was there not to do the same with Kennedy? The answer, I suspect, is that he wouldn't talk to us, because he knew he'd get better offers. We wouldn't stand a chance of keeping Kennedy when bigger clubs were interested. He wasn't going to stay for the money – or the atmosphere.
Swanson pulled the same 'Saints aren't offering me a deal' nonsense around Christmas a couple of years ago. I expect it was similar this time around. 
 
PS: I'm not Steve Brown.

Nail on head.

[Dick Van Dyke]

29 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

Don't understand this settled narrative that Saints didn't bother trying to keep Kennedy until it was too late. It doesn't make sense. Kennedy was our best player last season and we've always tried to re-sign players.  What reason was there not to do the same with Kennedy? The answer, I suspect, is that he wouldn't talk to us, because he knew he'd get better offers. We wouldn't stand a chance of keeping Kennedy when bigger clubs were interested. He wasn't going to stay for the money – or the atmosphere.

Swanson pulled the same 'Saints aren't offering me a deal' nonsense around Christmas a couple of years ago. I expect it was similar this time around. 

 

PS: I'm not Steve Brown.

I don’t know about others but I’m going by what tommy has said on the situation and Robert Thomson said last night we didn’t offer him a contract until December the 20th

[Broon_100]

5 minutes ago, Dick Van Dyke said:

I don’t know about others but I’m going by what tommy has said on the situation and Robert Thomson said last night we didn’t offer him a contract until December the 20th

Who's to say his agent wouldn't talk to us until then? The Agents have as much control as anyone.

Until Tommy comes out and says the club didn't bother I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Too many players claim they want to stay then within weeks are away. It's all talk.

[Dick Van Dyke]

13 minutes ago, Broon_100 said:

Who's to say his agent wouldn't talk to us until then? The Agents have as much control as anyone.

Until Tommy comes out and says the club didn't bother I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Too many players claim they want to stay then within weeks are away. It's all talk.

Surely If we’d ask to speak to him/his agent in the summer they would’ve at least heard what we had to say? His agent wouldn’t be doing his job right if he didn’t. 

[Dick Van Dyke]

Trying to look more positively, now that callachan looks to be dens park bound has anyone heard any realistic names of who might be coming in? Best case scenario is we get an experienced centre back who can also play right back. As unlikely as it seems I’d bite your hand off for shaughnessy right now. Don’t know if he’s injured though as he hadn’t played for Southend for a while.  Will Callachans wages off the books be enough to get someone in? Or do more need to go before we can bring Someone in? 

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, Dick Van Dyke said:

Surely If we’d ask to speak to him/his agent in the summer they would’ve at least heard what we had to say? His agent wouldn’t be doing his job right if he didn’t. 

Tbf if he's leaning towards leaving then the agent isn't going to seriously negotiate until he has an idea of his earning potential elsewhere.

Ultimately it'll come down to 'Aberdeen/Hearts are offering x, meet it or he's off'.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

57 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Tbf if he's leaning towards leaving then the agent isn't going to seriously negotiate until he has an idea of his earning potential elsewhere.

Ultimately it'll come down to 'Aberdeen/Hearts are offering x, meet it or he's off'.

I've never understood this belief from Saints fans that simply by offering him a contract 4-5 months ago he would have just signed it. He gave an interview recently saying he was happy here etc BUT unless someone is a complete moron they're not going to come out and say... "Nah I dont like it here and I want to find another club which pays more money". People using that as a clear indication he'd have signed is just daft. 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

Tbf if he's leaning towards leaving then the agent isn't going to seriously negotiate until he has an idea of his earning potential elsewhere.

Ultimately it'll come down to 'Aberdeen/Hearts are offering x, meet it or he's off'.

Agree with that. I think one of the problems in this case is that you have Tommy Wright broadly supporting the narrative that the club haven't been pro-active with Kennedy.

Quote

“For a club of our size we have to move earlier because that’s when we have the advantage.

“Matty had been in the wilderness. He came here, enjoyed his football and the time for us to strike would have been last year.

“Last January would have been the time to sit down with him and get him signed up on a longer contract.

“When it becomes this late, the financial muscle other clubs have comes into play and that is totally understandable.

“We can’t compete with clubs who have two or three times our budget. It’s a simple fact of life.

“I don’t think it’s something which will drag on, but I don’t want to lose him in the window.”

Link

Clearly no one actually knows what Kennedy would/wouldn't have done but when you have the player saying he hadn't been offered anything along with one of the main St Johnstone supporting voices in the press saying they didn't offer him anything until December 20th and the manager talking about how the club should have been engaged with the player a year ago (but weren't) it's not really a very good look.

We had the same sort of thing this time last year with Hastie where we had him out on loan at Alloa, he was brought back to the first team in January and that was the point we offered him his new contract - it was also the point he started pinging in goals from every angle and scored something like 6 in 7. Cue a scramble to get him on the cheap and the club looking like they'd misjudged things. If we'd offered him a new deal back in the Summer he'd definitely have signed etc.

Ultimately it depends on strategy and whether the club see the players as Wright alludes to "assets" to be protected or if as Motherwell did in the McCall era - when we had Randolph, Law, Hutchinson, Higdon et al walking out the door on frees - you accept that you're getting players for the duration of their contracts and if they do well you run the risk of losing them.

You've seen a bit of a sea change in the league since the mid-10s you look at Aberdeen tying down McKenna & Ferguson on long-term deals, Motherwell changing their model to focus on player-trading (I think we've brought in about £4m in transfer revenue since Hutchison took over then the subsequent switch to fan ownership) etc. You've also seen other clubs focusing on infrastructure off the park.

If the player's agent was - as has been suggested - avoiding any conversation about an extension then presumably St Johnstone had a choice to make in the summer. Either they try and cash in and actively try and move him on or they accept there was the likelihood that he'd be away on a free or a pre-contract and prepare for it.

I suppose it really depends on when the club made approaches to discuss an extension tbh.

Edited January 16, 2020 by capt_oats

[DukDukGoose]

4 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

I've never understood this belief from Saints fans that simply by offering him a contract 4-5 months ago he would have just signed it. He gave an interview recently saying he was happy here etc BUT unless someone is a complete moron they're not going to come out and say... "Nah I dont like it here and I want to find another club which pays more money". People using that as a clear indication he'd have signed is just daft. 

 

To be honest, Kenny McLean came out early and said he was likely going to move on. He was treated far better than Ryan Jack was. Regardless of expected location.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

I've never understood this belief from Saints fans that simply by offering him a contract 4-5 months ago he would have just signed it. He gave an interview recently saying he was happy here etc BUT unless someone is a complete moron they're not going to come out and say... "Nah I dont like it here and I want to find another club which pays more money". People using that as a clear indication he'd have signed is just daft. 

 

Can only speak for myself, but my frustration isnt that hes left, he'll have likely known of Aberdeens interest for a while now and we cant compete.

My sole frustration is that the club, according to the manager and closest journalist to the club, didnt offer him anything until after Aberdeen had made their move. 

[Broon_100]

6 minutes ago, Dick Van Dyke said:

Surely If we’d ask to speak to him/his agent in the summer they would’ve at least heard what we had to say? His agent wouldn’t be doing his job right if he didn’t. 

His Agent will have known his stock was high. The best price he'll get for himself and Matty will be in the window. Well worth waiting.

I don't begrudge him it. Only Tommy will know what his character's like if he can trust him to perform for the next 4 months.

[Mr Heliums]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

My sole frustration is that the club, according to the manager and closest journalist to the club, didnt offer him anything until after Aberdeen had made their move. 

But doesn't this strike you as unbelievable? He's the best player at the club and yet you seem to suggest that while we're extending the contracts of Clark, Booth, Tanser, Kerr, McCann, Craig and others we somehow overlooked Kennedy?

Don't you think a more realistic view might be that the club was advised that the player wouldn't commit until the transfer window? Wouldn't that explain why we didn't offer him a deal?

When it comes to Saints' transfer dealings, anything "according to the manager" is best ignored.

[PSJSaint]

18 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

But doesn't this strike you as unbelievable? He's the best player at the club and yet you seem to suggest that while we're extending the contracts of Clark, Booth, Tanser, Kerr, McCann, Craig and others we somehow overlooked Kennedy?

Don't you think a more realistic view might be that the club was advised that the player wouldn't commit until the transfer window? Wouldn't that explain why we didn't offer him a deal?

When it comes to Saints' transfer dealings, anything "according to the manager" is best ignored.

Exactly, and I would also put very little stock in "the player said publicly he wanted to stay at the club" - when was the last time you heard a player saying openly "I dont want to be here" or "I am keen to move to where I can get the most money". 

Again, the club can only really start offering contract extensions when the income for the next season is reasonably secure.  You only have to look at the situation ICT are in right now to see why clubs in the lower half of the Premiership can't risk handing our long contracts to their higher earning players when relegation is a constant threat.     

[Kyle]

We obviously don't know the whole story here. The chairman did say at the meet the fans event that he'd tried to speak to Wright and Kennedy's agents in the summer and neither one of them were interested in speaking to him then. Whether he (or Robertson since) continued to try is probably neither here or there in the grand scheme of things - he was always likely to leave at the end of of his contract, and was almost certain as soon as Aberdeen were able to put an offer to him.

The strategy of bringing in younger players is presumably with a view to bringing them in, developing them and then selling them on whilst we're in a position of power. It may be the case that these 2 year deals need to become 3 year deals for that to be a truly effective strategy. McCann, Clark and Kerr have signed longer term deals from within the club since the signings of Wright and Kennedy so it's maybe something we'll see in action this summer.

In other news, Callachan going out surely means we can now get a player in. Hopefully we're down the line with someone so that can happen quickly.

[The Saintee]

Brilliant news about Callachan. Hopefully that frees up some budget.