Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[PauloPerth]

8 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Will see how he views the squad with that one.

For me he has to have Wotherspoon on the left. I fucking drone on about it, but he gives us a balance and even if hes not playing well on the ball, hes good enough off it to help the players around him. McCann has to start, not sure why he was dropped.

Kennedy has to start, and O'Halloran has to start. May probably has to start too considering the alternatives. Ralston didnt do much wrong so put him in too.

Clark, Duffy, Kerr, Holt, Davidson, Swanson and Wright are all under threat after that "performance" yesterday. TW seemed absolutely raging at Tanser for some of his passes in the second half too, so will probably throw a huff and drop him.

is how I'd go. We aren't going to resolve the defensive issues by changing the shape. The first goal comes from a set piece which is just horrendous. Vihmann should help there but hes looked hopeless any time hes been on the park. Davidson is saved simply by the fact we need to be building relationships in the squad, every week we have different wingers in front of the full backs, and different combinations in the middle of the park. I'd be sticking with that eleven for the next next month or so and seeing how it goes, I don't think anyone not in there can complain theyve been left out.

Agree with your selection other than for a physical battle I'd throw Vihmann in instead of Duffy. Shudder

[Valentino Bolognese]

14 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

To be competitive in the bottom half, a strong centre back would make a massive difference. Tanser and Ralston are decent enough. We know Clark is a good enough keeper for this division, he's just way off form, like others.

Teams are built on a solid foundation. The lack of trust in the defence is underpinning the entire team and probably a factor in so many not performing.  And the midfield has to take its share of the blame, particularly yesterday, where we barely won a tackle and let st Mirren players run off us to get onto clearances by our CB's/ flicks from their strikers time and time again.

I agree with what you are saying about up front as well longer term, but I think we have enough amongst the wide/ forward players to be able to get a few goals and therefore wins if we become capable of keeping clean sheets.

As RG says, where do you get a centre back now?  I'm just thinking Dundee somehow managed it with Caulker a couple of seasons ago, so who knows..

Absolutely agree that it's the middle of the defence that's the root cause of the confidence problems and that is no doubt having a massive impact on Zander. At the first goal yesterday he had no idea where he was supposed to be and fannied about in no-man's land. You could see the panic in his eyes. A completely different keeper to this time last year. 

Also notable that we were over-run in the middle of the park yesterday. I still like Holt but he's tiny and when Muzz got his yellow that was his physicality neutralised. 

Agree also we have the individual players to be an attacking threat from wide but their link up play was in tatters yesterday. Not sure if that's communication or not playing enough games together or what but nothing was coming off. Maybe it's the simple realisation that they're just not as good as we think they are. 

So yes, it's that old cliche that teams are built on a solid spine. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Valentino Bolognese
route/root spelling, makes a change from Clark/Clarke

[Shaggy Jenkins]

8 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

To be fair, as dreadful as we were in that second half, I genuinely feel one experienced decent centre back would make a world of difference. 

Kerr actually had a good first half I thought, apart from the first goal, where the whole back line looked poor.  Put a decent bit of experience at centre back alongside him and the whole team would get a lift.

I imagine there's not many free agents kicking about, but I'd be scouring the land this week looking for someone who's without a club and could do a job.

 

 

Maybe a not of the Benito kembleys about him but....

[Templar]

31 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

We aren't going to resolve the defensive issues by changing the shape

And we are not going to resolve the goal scoring issues if we do not. Tommy has tried everything but 4-4-2 which is what May needs. MOH and Wotherspoon are tried and tested wide players who can defend use them and give May a strike partner.

 

 

[PauloPerth]

21 minutes ago, Shaggy Jenkins said:

Maybe a not of the Benito kembleys about him but....

In a heartbeat.  We'd become a top six challenger overnight!

[Templar]

Looking for some one, I mentioned him before when we were looking for a centre back/full back Marc Wilson 32 years old (25 caps).  He is a centre back who can play full back and defensive midfield. He is still available. But is there any money left as we went overboard to get May.

[RandomGuy.]

27 minutes ago, Templar said:

And we are not going to resolve the goal scoring issues if we do not. Tommy has tried everything but 4-4-2 which is what May needs. MOH and Wotherspoon are tried and tested wide players who can defend use them and give May a strike partner.

He went 4-4-2 yesterday with Hendry and May up front, and we didnt even come close to creating a chance, if anything it made us look even worse. 

[RandomGuy.]

13 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

The last time we opened a top flight season with no wins in 9 games, we were relegated with 21 points.

In the opening 9 games we had drawn 3, including a 1-1 draw with Aberdeen and a 2-2 draw with Livingston. We started that season with a defeat away to Celtic.

In our 9th game we lost to the team who would finish one place above us.

Spooky.

Further to this. In 2001/02, we played Hearts in gameday11. Hearts had been on a run of 3 defeats, which followed a draw, and they beat us 3-0.

This season Hearts last match was a loss, which followed a draw. If they lose against Rangers today, then away to Livingston, we'll be playing them on gameday11, theyll have been on a run of e defeats which followed a draw...

Edited October 20, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[RandomGuy.]

Our next three matches are all at home. Hamilton, Hearts then Hibernian. We win all three theres still hope. If we win all three, we'd be on 13 points after 12 games, a better tally than four sides had last season.

We managed three consecutive home leagues wins once last year, at the end (Dundee, Dundee, Motherwell).

Before that you've to go back to August/September 2015.

To me, that's the only way we can get out this now. You need your 9/10 wins to avoid the play offs, so you need 2/3 wins after every round of fixtures before the split.

[Templar]

47 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

He went 4-4-2 yesterday with Hendry and May up front, and we didnt even come close to creating a chance, if anything it made us look even worse. 

I have not seen the match so I will take your word for it. According reports Tommy statements and posts it seems like we did not turn up for the second half. It appears like the towel was thrown in before he changed the system. I believe we have have to go 4-4-2 with Wotherspoon and MOH wide and Hendry or Kane up front with May.

Some may think our squad is set up for 4-2-3-1 but it is not, we do not have a loan striker and we do not have anyone who can play in the middle of the 3. He has tried various players there without much sucess. Swanson against County being the exception. But what did he do yesterday?

I will say it again our problem is we have too many wide players (Kennedy, Wright, O'Halloran, Swanson and Wotherspoon) and not one is a natural striker or number 10. Tommy is trying too hard to fit 3 of them into the team and it is not working.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Templar said:

I have not seen the match so I will take your word for it. According reports Tommy statements and posts it seems like we did not turn up for the second half. It appears like the towel was thrown in before he changed the system. I believe we have have to go 4-4-2 with Wotherspoon and MOH wide and Hendry or Kane up front with May.

Some may think our squad is set up for 4-2-3-1 but it is not, we do not have a loan striker and we do not have anyone who can play in the middle of the 3. He has tried various players there without much sucess. Swanson against County being the exception. But what did he do yesterday?

I will say it again our problem is we have too many wide players (Kennedy, Wright, O'Halloran, Swanson and Wotherspoon) and not one is a natural striker or number 10. Tommy is trying too hard to fit 3 of them into the team and it is not working.

We were fine, perfectly fine, with the 4-2-3-1 yesterday. Dominating play, creating opportunities and building pressure. It felt like just a matter of time until we got a really good chance and took it.

Then we conceded a goal from a thump into the box, and left a striker 6 yards out with nobody even close to him. Heads went after that and it doesnt matter how we set up, as the players had given up.

The formation is not the issue.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 minute ago, Templar said:

I have not seen the match so I will take your word for it. According reports Tommy statements and posts it seems like we did not turn up for the second half. It appears like the towel was thrown in before he changed the system. I believe we have have to go 4-4-2 with Wotherspoon and MOH wide and Hendry or Kane up front with May.

Some may think our squad is set up for 4-2-3-1 but it is not, we do not have a loan striker and we do not have anyone who can play in the middle of the 3. He has tried various players there without much sucess. Swanson against County being the exception. But what did he do yesterday?

I will say it again our problem is we have too many wide players (Kennedy, Wright, O'Halloran, Swanson and Wotherspoon) and not one is a natural striker or number 10. Tommy is trying too hard to fit 3 of them into the team and it is not working.

No need to 'take his word for it' (jeez). If you need to Google tells you Hendry came on for Swanson in the 59th minute, 2 minutes later they scored. 

Oh and you're right we don't have a loan striker. Could do with one though.

The problem is NOT too many wide players. It's not having a robust central defence. All the players you mention bring options to the squad but it's useless when we aren't solid at the back.

 

[Sh*teAndMuck]

Hi. Years of reading the forum, decided to sign up. 
 

It’s proper panic stations now. I get what folk are saying about formations and I personally feel May is isolated in the 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-2-1. I also agree 4-4-2 isn’t an instant answer. 
 

The thing that sticks out for me is how little Tommy has tried to change. I wonder if we’ll see him try something different now we’re really in trouble?

if it’s experience we need, get Ando back and get Craig fit...

                    Zander 

                      Ando

                 Kerr Gordon

Ralston                            Tanser

             Holt  Muzz  Craig  

                May      Kennedy

Replace Kennedy with any of the #ballers who aren’t cutting it beside May  or better still. A big lad who can head in from crosses.

Maybe crazy but we need to stop leaking goals. Get back to hard to beat, shitfest Saints rather than playing decent football (not that we do anyway) Saints.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

If it’s experience we need, get Ando back

Anderson cant return until January.

Agree about experience though, and half expecting Craig to get wheeled out for the Hamilton game.

[Sh*teAndMuck]

6 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Anderson cant return until January.

Agree about experience though, and half expecting Craig to get wheeled out for the Hamilton game.

Didn’t realise that. Although FWIW I doubt he’d be the answer but might help the two young centre halfs and maybe less demand for running if he’s the spare in a back 3.
 

Just a thought, but the main point stands. Why is Tommy not trying something different cos  this ain’t working.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Sh*teAndMuck

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

Just a thought, but the main point stands. Why is Tommy not trying something different cid this ain’t working.

Can only think it's been because it's been so close to working. Been a few games this where its just poor defending/poor finishing, that's done us, rather than the overall performance. 

[Widge]

Yeah Liam Craig is coming straight back into the team against Hamilton and I’ll be honest I think that’s a good thing. Go back to being solid, I’d almost take a chance and push Holt further forward behind May, since he seems reasonably creative and willing to pick passes. Let Craig sit and Davidson do the graft. Harsh on McCann, but needs must. Pick any 2 of the 5 wingers we actually have and tell them that they need to support May at all costs.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 hour ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

Hi. Years of reading the forum, decided to sign up. 
 

It’s proper panic stations now. I get what folk are saying about formations and I personally feel May is isolated in the 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-2-1. I also agree 4-4-2 isn’t an instant answer. 
 

The thing that sticks out for me is how little Tommy has tried to change. I wonder if we’ll see him try something different now we’re really in trouble?

if it’s experience we need, get Ando back and get Craig fit...

                    Zander 

                      Ando

                 Kerr Gordon

Ralston                            Tanser

             Holt  Muzz  Craig  

                May      Kennedy

Replace Kennedy with any of the #ballers who aren’t cutting it beside May  or better still. A big lad who can head in from crosses.

Maybe crazy but we need to stop leaking goals. Get back to hard to beat, shitfest Saints rather than playing decent football (not that we do anyway) Saints.

You could play that with what have available now, which is Vihmann and Duffy until Gordon is back from injury. Ando is not the answer I'm afraid. I'd like to keep McCann in the team as he's one of the few that's having a decent season and he's got the pace that Craig doesn't. I think I agree though that 3 at the back and 2 up top could be a shape that works. I'm completely deaf to the 'negative' shouters until we stop shipping goals, even if that means playing 5 at the back at home against Hamilton. Christ I just had to read that back. 

As others have noted, until yesterday there were no real panic signs as the performances were generally better than the results. Yesterday we were so, so poor you have to wonder wtf actually happened. A worrying thing for me is that when TW had to step up and deliver a game-changing half time dressing room performance the team actually came out worse. 

My sliver of hope is that for some reason yesterday was a blip as the same players have generally been on a (slow) improvement curve, but I'm fooling myself. We've been making baby steps forward and yesterday was a massive leap backwards. 

Going to be the last time I say it but to me everything points to the centre of defence and the lack of trust and confidence in that part of the park. So maybe putting another body in there will help, maybe not, probably worth a go, just tell Vihmann to do nothing other than stop long balls and crosses. 

[Templar]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Our next three matches are all at home. Hamilton, Hearts then Hibernian. We win all three theres still hope.

Cluthing at straws (and we need to). Just watched the Hearts 1v1 Rangers match. Hearts were the better team, solid at the back. Rangers had 1 shot on target and they scored. Their big strong striker was a contant thorn in Rangers side, I dread to think what he will do our centre backs.. If Hearts perfom the way they did today, we will not beat them or draw.

[Shaggy Jenkins]

Time to change it up totally