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      Pie and Bovril Nostalgia Mobile Phone Cases!   12/09/18

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Kyle

St Johnstone FC Thread

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4 hours ago, Radford said:

Think Keigan Parker possibly made his debut that day as a late sub. 

Strength of that squad compared to now?

Our average crowd that season was over 7,000.

Remember in his first full season Parker was ripping everyone to shreds as a teenager, the next big thing, and had 9 goals in the top league by Xmas. Think it was only one more by the end of the season!  As Tam said, that was a brilliant season. One cup final,the other cup semi final, and third placed finish.

Would say that squad was stronger, without a prolific scorer strangely enough, but I always find that hard to compare teams from different eras.  Think the league as a whole was probably  much stronger back then?

3 hours ago, codfish said:


How times have changed - now that would see you as the best supported team in Scotland outside the ‘city’ clubs.

Obviously reduced crowds isn’t a problem limited to St Johnstone, but the drop-off does seem pretty sharp when you consider the family pricing etc you guys offer - probably been done to death, but what do you reckon caused that?

It's a good question and I think a combination of what everyone has said.  I think society has changed in the way people attend matches. Just 5 years ago we took 15,000 to a cup final, and had a home only crowd of 8500 for a big European night.

The support is still there, we took 1800 to Dens in December for example, and if we had a big meaningful occasion/game I think folk would turn up in big numbers again.  It's just many people regard attending matches like any other past time now, in that they'll head along if it's appealing, but otherwise there's plenty other things they'd rather spend their money on. Which is absolutely fair enough.

Price is a relative thing. If we were winning every week, playing entertaining football and top of the league, I think people find the money and sacrifice something else and we'd get much bigger crowds.  There's probably a bit of a plateau been hit by Saints in recent years after the most successful period in our history, fans maybe think how do we top it?

st Mirren are on a bit of a rise just now in terms of there's excitement at being back in the top league, and your crowds have been really good as a result.  Were crowds as good after a run of seasons finishing mid/ lower Premiership and the novelty wore off, genuine question as I can't remember st Mirren having much bigger crowds than the likes of ourselves 5-6 years back, though I could be wrong.

You're right about our prices though. For families (and teenagers), is cost really an excuse for not going? 

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It's a good question and I think a combination of what everyone has said.  I think society has changed in the way people attend matches. Just 5 years ago we took 15,000 to a cup final, and had a home only crowd of 8500 for a big European night.
The support is still there, we took 1800 to Dens in December for example, and if we had a big meaningful occasion/game I think folk would turn up in big numbers again.  It's just many people regard attending matches like any other past time now, in that they'll head along if it's appealing, but otherwise there's plenty other things they'd rather spend their money on. Which is absolutely fair enough.
Price is a relative thing. If we were winning every week, playing entertaining football and top of the league, I think people find the money and sacrifice something else and we'd get much bigger crowds.  There's probably a bit of a plateau been hit by Saints in recent years after the most successful period in our history, fans maybe think how do we top it?
st Mirren are on a bit of a rise just now in terms of there's excitement at being back in the top league, and your crowds have been really good as a result.  Were crowds as good after a run of seasons finishing mid/ lower Premiership and the novelty wore off, genuine question as I can't remember st Mirren having much bigger crowds than the likes of ourselves 5-6 years back, though I could be wrong.
You're right about our prices though. For families (and teenagers), is cost really an excuse for not going? 


That was kinda what got me thinking about it - we saw a dip up to the upturn in fortunes under Jack Ross, but we’ve sustained the bounce in attendances even through the Alan Stubbs clusterfuck. In a way, relegation and a couple of seasons in the Championship might prove to be a benefit in the long term. Prior to Ross we had some league games with home crowds around the 2k-2.5k mark - apathy is a bugger to shift, and I admit to being someone who got bored and stopped going for a while.

With having family in Perth, I keep a closer eye on St Johnstone than some other clubs - I said after our last game that you guys have a blueprint that we should be looking to emulate (and eventually surpass with the right management and luck). The cup win should’ve given more of a bounce IMO, so the winning team argument doesn’t really apply. Probably as stumped as most of you as a result!

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14 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Price is a relative thing. If we were winning every week, playing entertaining football and top of the league, I think people find the money and sacrifice something else and we'd get much bigger crowds.  There's probably a bit of a plateau been hit by Saints in recent years after the most successful period in our history, fans maybe think how do we top it?

Disagree with that – I think pricing must be a factor, although it isn't clear how big. The pay-at-the-gate proportion of the home crowd has plummeted in the past 20 years, maybe because gate prices have more than doubled in real terms in that time. Hard to get into a habit when it's costing £25 a shot. The shift also means you're less likely to get the fluctuations in attendance that saw such peaks. In 1996, sandwiched between gates of 9,000+ v Hearts and Dundee United was the home game against Hamilton, which was seen by 2,600.

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3 hours ago, codfish said:


The cup win should’ve given more of a bounce IMO, so the winning team argument doesn’t really apply. 

 

It does though. 

Our board has probably been about the best in Scottish football in the way it runs a successful club within its means, but we missed the biggest opportunity in our history after the cup final. We didn't have season ticket info out til well into the summer, did no push whatsoever on the back of the cup win, and played the early part of the season without a recognised striker after May left after pre-season and Steve Maclean got a bad injury.

Despite all that, our average crowd went from 3806 to 4592.

The season we won the cup playing great football with Stevie May banging the goals in, the following season we did well in the league by being incredibly well organised, but very unexciting to watch and shitfesting our way to a lot of 1-0's.

Our average was back down the following season.

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3 hours ago, Mr Heliums said:

Disagree with that – I think pricing must be a factor, although it isn't clear how big. The pay-at-the-gate proportion of the home crowd has plummeted in the past 20 years, maybe because gate prices have more than doubled in real terms in that time. Hard to get into a habit when it's costing £25 a shot. The shift also means you're less likely to get the fluctuations in attendance that saw such peaks. In 1996, sandwiched between gates of 9,000+ v Hearts and Dundee United was the home game against Hamilton, which was seen by 2,600.

Don't you think it's more perceived value for money rather than simply price?  I just think that if we were exciting to watch and winning every week, then people would find a way to be able to afford it.

I might be wrong.

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22 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

 

The season we won the cup playing great football with Stevie May banging the goals in, the following season we did well in the league by being incredibly well organised, but very unexciting to watch and shitfesting our way to a lot of 1-0's.

Our average was back down the following season.

Aye, the next season was an absolute slog, probably a record number of games involving less than 2 goals.

All the folk who mewl about Saints being shite, but who then came along after the Cup win, probably felt their opinions were justified and it simply entrenched their belief going to games is a waste of money.

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9 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

Don't you think it's more perceived value for money rather than simply price?  I just think that if we were exciting to watch and winning every week, then people would find a way to be able to afford it.

I might be wrong.

You are absolutely right in all this Paulo. The cup win bounce was squandered, and it's all about value not price. I would say though that we could be playing exciting football and not getting the results. I think we made the decision some time ago that it was one or the other but not both (possibly a reasonable position given our budgets). 

I'm hopeful that TW is trying to build a more exciting team to watch and that this summer will see signings that continue that trend. 

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16 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

Despite all that, our average crowd went from 3806 to 4592.

 

That season, we had 6K plus crowds vs Aberdeen, Dundee (x2), Celtic (x3) and over 7000 vs Dundee United, but that is largely due to healthy away supports. I'm not convinced there has been much fluctuation in terms of home support either pre or post cup win.

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6 hours ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

it's all about value not price. 

I'm hopeful that TW is trying to build a more exciting team to watch and that this summer will see signings that continue that trend. 

If it's about value then price is at least a factor. If I don't make the commitment to buy a season ticket - which I haven't for the last few years as there were so many non-Saturday games - then it's pretty easy to forego a trip through from Edinburgh when it's going to cost around £50 cash a shot. Granted if there was a buzz about McDiarmid, the decision might be more difficult. But that's been a theoretical argument for years.

Remember too that TW tried to build a more exciting team last year.  Signing Wright, Swanson, O'Halloran and Watt over a few months signalled an ambition to play attractive football.  But, of matches I've seen, other than Dundee away we just haven't seen that on the pitch.

Edited by Mr Heliums

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2 hours ago, Mr Heliums said:

If it's about value then price is at least a factor. If I don't make the commitment to buy a season ticket - which I haven't for the last few years as there were so many non-Saturday games - then it's pretty easy to forego a trip through from Edinburgh when it's going to cost around £50 cash a shot. Granted if there was a buzz about McDiarmid, the decision might be more difficult. But that's been a theoretical argument for years.

Remember too that TW tried to build a more exciting team last year.  Signing Wright, Swanson, O'Halloran and Watt over a few months signalled an ambition to play attractive football.  But, of matches I've seen, other than Dundee away we just haven't seen that on the pitch.

Price is the cost component of what is called 'the value equation'. People buy value, price is relative to how the individual perceives that value, which is again a component of what drives demand. Are we expensive? Depends on your individual view of value. 

Anyway not really the point. I would say that Tommy's hit rate of signings has not been too bad. Kennedy and Wright have really worked and MOH is really starting to kick on. It was billed as a transition year after all so a few mis-steps are to be expected. I've been to I think every home game and a big chunk of aways. I agree we are not a team with attacking flair but you can see that there's been progress. I think Tommy is going for evolution rather than revolution, which is sensible and very St Johnstone. We will build our sexy team of ballers in a very pragmatic and risk averse way... 

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Have to say I think games at McDiarmid Park this season have been far more entertaining than what we were getting for the couple of seasons prior.

Granted we had a horrendous run that went on far too long, but overall we have seen far more chances created and shots, and periods of decent passing play.  I think some are forgetting how we used to spend the whole game humping it in the air to Steven Maclean up front on his own.

It has been night and day for me.  Wright initially, but Kennedy from around October / November time, a big part in it.  But the whole team have tried to pass the ball far more in most games this season.

Edited by PauloPerth
Speeling mistake

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43 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Have to say I think games at McDiarmid Park this season have been far more entertaining than what we were getting for the couple of seasons prior.

Granted we had a horrendous run that went on far too long, but overall we have seen far more chances created and shots, and periods of decent passing play.  I think some are forgetting how we used to spend the whole game humping it in the air to Steven Maclean up front on his own.

It has been night and day for me.  Wright initially, but Kennedy from around October / November time, a big part in it.  But the whole team have tried to pass the ball far more in most games this season.

Would agree with all of that.

Just a pity we fell away after the break.

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58 minutes ago, akuram said:

Would agree with all of that.

Just a pity we fell away after the break.

Yep.  And we have to consider the competition. Can't think of any team this season that have wowed the crowds with liquid football, and there's been far worse cloggers than us this year (stares hard at Hearts, Accies, pre-Cosgrove Aberdeen, the unmentionables) .. actually pretty much all of them bar Celtic, sometimes and Rangers, sometimes.

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Happy 5th anniversary, everyone!

Here's an alternative  version of our cup song Fair Maid, put together by Saints fan Ben Freeman, which includes snippets of Liam McLeod's commentary from the 2014 Scottish Cup semi-final and final.

 

Hope you like it! If you do, it's available for free download at https://theshrugs1.bandcamp.com/releases

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How times have changed - now that would see you as the best supported team in Scotland outside the ‘city’ clubs.

Obviously reduced crowds isn’t a problem limited to St Johnstone, but the drop-off does seem pretty sharp when you consider the family pricing etc you guys offer - probably been done to death, but what do you reckon caused that?
There's probably many reasons, who knows. There was a real buzz about the place from the mid 90's - probably early 1996 onwards when we were playing some great stuff, regularly tonking teams in the First Division - and not just the fodder, decent sides at the time like Dundee, Falkirk, Partick, Morton were regularly skelped. Obviously promotion at a canter in 1997 helped crowds and a great start to life in the Premier League kept that going. After 99 it was all downhill, the football was murder. The prices weren't that great - no kids deals in those days - and I just think people got out of the habit. The current team do deserve a wee bit better but the club are so poor at marketing what they have, which is a shame. I'm always so surprised at the amount of folk who have no idea about the Family Stand deal.

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Looks like Tony Watt has signed for CSKA Sofia on a 3 year contract. Bet there's good money in that for him! Best of luck to the guy. 

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6 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Looks like Tony Watt has signed for CSKA Sofia on a 3 year contract. Bet there's good money in that for him! Best of luck to the guy. 

He'll be hounded after season 1.

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seems like the perfect day to announce the return of a former saints number 17.....

 

just not denny johnstone

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