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Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread


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3 minutes ago, Radford said:

 

That's surely not where @RandomGuy. envisages signing Marcus Fraser for? I'm looking for the next Frazer Wright, some experience, presence, leadership and character.

Was just throwing out the name of a CB who can play RB. Hes 24, has over 100 top flight appearances and was named as Ross Countys captain this season. The comparisons with Shaughnessy are there, if you're looking for them.

No doubt screams bottom half to some people.

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Is Fraser a centre back though? I know he's played there but he's a full back predominantly, is he not? Either way, he's setting our sights quite low IMO. I'm never impressed when folk tout unreasonable targets but equally, if we go on a recruitment drive of McGowan, Fraser and the likes this summer, we are selling ourselves well short. The manager might need to broaden his horizons though. 

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19 minutes ago, Radford said:

Is Fraser a centre back though? I know he's played there but he's a full back predominantly, is he not? Either way, he's setting our sights quite low IMO. I'm never impressed when folk tout unreasonable targets but equally, if we go on a recruitment drive of McGowan, Fraser and the likes this summer, we are selling ourselves well short. The manager might need to broaden his horizons though. 

I'm sure hes better at CB than FB, but might be wrong. Someone like @bunglebonce or @Savage Henry are who I usually look for to judge County players.

I'm just touting players who come to mind, tbh, there might be more Drey Wright type signings hiding somewhere, I'd never even heard of him when he signed.

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1 hour ago, Widge said:

I think Wright does rate Gordon, he’s thrown him in to some pretty big games. He also gave him a new two year deal very early on, you don’t no that unless you rate someone.

Yes that's true, as is the comment about him being thrown into some big games.  On the flip side, outwith Kerr, the defence has had some poor performances over the past 4 months and the manager hasn't once changed the personnel.  He's also dropped Gordon out of a couple of matchday squads to bring in Keown instead. 

I don't think Gordon has been given much of a crack at it to establish whether he's first team quality or not.

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Kerr had proven himself in the Championship, he had 96 senior appearances at QOS and East Fife before coming back.

Gordon has 42 senior appearances in his entire career, 13 at Saints, the rest below Championship level.

Rightly or wrongly people will have doubts about relying on him over the full season.

Probably. Wright mentions talking to McInnes about Shaughnessy in his interview.

The vast majority of Kerr's appearances were also in the bottom two divisions, he played 18 league games in the championship. He was excellent, but the fact was he got the opportunity to go out on loan at that level, whilst Gordon was kept on as cover for Anderson and Shaughnessy. 

When he came back, Kerr was given a first team run and, this season, has established himself as one of our top players. Gordon should have then been given the opportunity to go out on loan at championship level as well.

I can't think of a match where Gordon has been brought in where he has let us down. Yet, similarly, I can't think of an occasion where he has played consecutive league games for us. League cup group stage yes.

People are saying we can't rely on him for next season. How will he ever be able to prove himself if he doesn't get a run of games?  Is he just to remain third choice, hoping for injuries or to get 4 or 5 appearances a season.  He will never kick on if that's the plan.

I genuinely don't know if he'll prove consistently good enough for this level.  But he deserves the opportunity to show what he can do in a run of games. He's 23 years old, and for his own development he needs to be playing competitive matches.

The fact that we've been so poor for 4 months. The fact that we had a nothing fixture yesterday, and yet we still pick a player whose form has been inconsistent at best for a while, that the manager admits has kept us hanging and is probably away next season, over an up and coming centre back who is committed to the club, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

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11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm sure hes better at CB than FB, but might be wrong. Someone like @bunglebonce or @Savage Henry are who I usually look for to judge County players.

I'm just touting players who come to mind, tbh, there might be more Drey Wright type signings hiding somewhere, I'd never even heard of him when he signed.

It's a weird thing.  Jim McIntyre was quoted as saying Fraser saw his future at centre back.  Since he has been at County, he's had one season (last season) in which he's played regularly at centre half.  He was pushed out to left back under the magical wisdom of Owen Coyle for a spell, but he looks most comfortable at right back in a back four, or on the right of a back three, which County almost never play.  So despite second hand claims that he wants to play centre back, every single manager seems to think he's a full back.      I'm pretty certain he's already said that he's staying on if County go up though.  

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3 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Yes that's true, as is the comment about him being thrown into some big games.  On the flip side, outwith Kerr, the defence has had some poor performances over the past 4 months and the manager hasn't once changed the personnel.  He's also dropped Gordon out of a couple of matchday squads to bring in Keown instead. 

I don't think Gordon has been given much of a crack at it to establish whether he's first team quality or not.

The vast majority of Kerr's appearances were also in the bottom two divisions, he played 18 league games in the championship. He was excellent, but the fact was he got the opportunity to go out on loan at that level, whilst Gordon was kept on as cover for Anderson and Shaughnessy. 

When he came back, Kerr was given a first team run and, this season, has established himself as one of our top players. Gordon should have then been given the opportunity to go out on loan at championship level as well.

I can't think of a match where Gordon has been brought in where he has let us down. Yet, similarly, I can't think of an occasion where he has played consecutive league games for us. League cup group stage yes.

People are saying we can't rely on him for next season. How will he ever be able to prove himself if he doesn't get a run of games?  Is he just to remain third choice, hoping for injuries or to get 4 or 5 appearances a season.  He will never kick on if that's the plan.

I genuinely don't know if he'll prove consistently good enough for this level.  But he deserves the opportunity to show what he can do in a run of games. He's 23 years old, and for his own development he needs to be playing competitive matches.

The fact that we've been so poor for 4 months. The fact that we had a nothing fixture yesterday, and yet we still pick a player whose form has been inconsistent at best for a while, that the manager admits has kept us hanging and is probably away next season, over an up and coming centre back who is committed to the club, makes no sense whatsoever.

 

This.

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1 hour ago, PauloPerth said:

People are saying we can't rely on him for next season. How will he ever be able to prove himself if he doesn't get a run of games?  Is he just to remain third choice, hoping for injuries or to get 4 or 5 appearances a season.  He will never kick on if that's the plan.

I genuinely don't know if he'll prove consistently good enough for this level.  But he deserves the opportunity to show what he can do in a run of games. He's 23 years old, and for his own development he needs to be playing competitive matches.

The start of the two paragraphs contradict each other. How can we rely on someone we don't know will be good enough? I imagine there aren't many Saints fans that haven't been impressed by Gordon, don't rate him or don't want to see him get a run. But... 

Folk can argue about whether he should have played more and he's been unfortunate by circumstance in that the back four have been injury free all season but what has happened has happened and we need to deal with the here and now looking to next season. A run of five good games after the split would help but we can't go into next season with our second choice centre back being a young defender that has very little experience.

The ideal scenario for me would be a deal could be struck with Shaughnessy and Gordon continues to push him and Kerr for a place. 

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My priority,  for what it's worth, top to bottom.

Central mid - agree with the consensus that we need *someone* in there. I think there's a player in Callahan but he needs a steadying influence next to him and we need solidity in that part of the park. Basically, an upgrade on Craig is required. 

Up front - I'm hanging on to Watt turning a corner, he just seems too good not to. He should play until the end of the year. Kane should not be a starting striker, and it's too early to tell for Hendy but signs are good. I'd be happy to run with Watt/Hendry for the rest of the season but if we have to spend this is where it needs to be. 

FB - On the left it would be good to see Easton back, and I expect he will be. Tanser has his moments but like too many in the team he's a 6/10. On the other side I think Foster's been better recently. I would like to see some fresh blood here as I just think we're no better than competent and getting stale.

CB - Would be happy to see Kerr/Gordon for the rest of the season and assuming that works, get Anderson back for cover and I think we could probably be OK with loans if we need to bulk out a wee bit more. Joe's had his chance, he's played well but I don't want to see him next season. 

GK - Bell is pretty poor but 2 x first team quality keepers is a bit of a luxury when there's other wage priorities. Yes they get injured but it's fairly rare. 

Wingers - Don't want to see Danny Swanson in a Saints jersey ever again, and do not agree that he should get game time until the end of the season. I'd rather that went to Blair Alston. He might not be the same quality but he plays like he cares. Keep playing MOH also. I think we should maybe give Kennedy some bench time as he's proved his worth and he's a player not to risk injury to. No idea how Wright will come back from injury but let's assume he's fine. 

We've not talked about the back room. Do we need to freshen up the coaching? A lot of the problems recently seem to come from basics, passing particularly, but also a seeming lack of co-ordination, trust, communication an awareness of others in the team. 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Radford said:

The start of the two paragraphs contradict each other. How can we rely on someone we don't know will be good enough? I imagine there aren't many Saints fans that haven't been impressed by Gordon, don't rate him or don't want to see him get a run. But... 

Folk can argue about whether he should have played more and he's been unfortunate by circumstance in that the back four have been injury free all season but what has happened has happened and we need to deal with the here and now looking to next season. A run of five good games after the split would help but we can't go into next season with our second choice centre back being a young defender that has very little experience.

The ideal scenario for me would be a deal could be struck with Shaughnessy and Gordon continues to push him and Kerr for a place. 

Exactly the same as this season you mean?!  

Where he's only had a chance when we've gone to a back three, or when Shaughnessy was injured at the start of the season.  Not sure how he's going to develop in that scenario. He'd be better going out on loan if that was the case, and Anderson or someone like Keown were the cover.

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I’m not convinced any of the out of contract players will be here next season. There’s question marks next to all of them. 

Comrie - is he good enough? Manager doesn’t seem to think so, seeing as he’s only played once all season. 

Shaughnessy - clearly looking elsewhere. Club desperate to keep but looks unlikely.

Easton - need to prove his fitness. He’s hardly played since his last two year contract extension and that needs to be taken into account before making him any offer for the future. 

Alston - underwhelmed since signing 3 years ago largely. Hardly played since the winter break even before his injury. I’m still not convinced he’s a top flight player, certainly 

Watt - I like him but he’s only scored three league goals and two of those have been against the bottom 2, the other was a cross that went into net off a Hibs defender.  I can’t see the club offering him a new contract on high wages. Maybe on a reduced deal. 

Bell is the only loanee we might try and sign permanently I think. The other two either haven’t played or haven’t contributed anything.

In terms of new signings, we need a goalkeeper (if we don’t sign Bell permanently), a right back to actually challenge Foster, at least one and possibly 2 centre back depending on what happens with a Shaughnessy and Anderson, potentially a left back if Easton can’t prove his fitness, a centre mid in the Chris Millar mould and one, potentially two strikers depending on what happens with Watt and McMillan. 

 

So a minimum of 5 signings, potentially as many as 9 depending on the size of the clear out. 

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1 hour ago, PauloPerth said:

Exactly the same as this season you mean?!  

Where he's only had a chance when we've gone to a back three, or when Shaughnessy was injured at the start of the season.  Not sure how he's going to develop in that scenario. He'd be better going out on loan if that was the case, and Anderson or someone like Keown were the cover.

The loan issue could be addressed, although you know if we put him out that Kerr or Shaughnessy would get injured. As I touched on, he's been unfortunate this season that opportunities through injury/suspension haven't presented themselves. That's sometimes the break a young player needs. 

On the coaching staff, my only real issue is who is improving the strikers. Our goalkeeper of a manager or one of the two full backs on his team? I've mentioned that before and think we could do worse than getting someone like Billy Dodds in for a couple of days a week. 

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5 hours ago, Radford said:

Is Fraser a centre back though? I know he's played there but he's a full back predominantly, is he not? Either way, he's setting our sights quite low IMO. I'm never impressed when folk tout unreasonable targets but equally, if we go on a recruitment drive of McGowan, Fraser and the likes this summer, we are selling ourselves well short. The manager might need to broaden his horizons though. 

4 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm sure hes better at CB than FB, but might be wrong. Someone like @bunglebonce or @Savage Henry are who I usually look for to judge County players.

I'm just touting players who come to mind, tbh, there might be more Drey Wright type signings hiding somewhere, I'd never even heard of him when he signed.

Fraser is a centre-back with a full-back's physique.  I have a theory that if he came through Celtic in the early 90s then he would have gone on to be a club icon in the mould of Tom Boyd, but when he plays CB now he's invariably the smallest in the league.

When paired with Andrew Davies last season - at the beginning of the season especially when Davies was fit - Fraser showed some excellent form.  He reads the game very well.  Davies won the battles on the air and Fraser on the ground.  Fraser could be singled out in the air however and it didn't help that his keeper was rooted to the line.  If he played CB he'd need someone like Frazer Wright beside him and a keeper that comes out for crosses.

Right of a back three is his ideal position.  He's played exclusively full-back since Kettlewell and Ferguson have come in.  He looks better as a defender than an attacker.  He's not a top-six calibre full-back IMO but he could arguably be a passable top-six centre-back with the correct people around him.

My theory is that he would be going to Dundee this summer, but if Dundee are going down I doubt that would happen.  

Edited by bunglebonce
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Word on the street (or the St Johnstone banter facebook page) is that Blair Alston is for the trebuchet this summer. No contract offer forthcoming.

Whether that's true or not is another thing all together but it would explain his lack of game time.

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Just now, The Real Saints said:

Ghostie’s absolutely fuming. Bizarre. Blair Alston is the ultimate ‘meh’ player. Occasionally does well, is given the opportunity to replicate it and then puts in an ineffectual performance. I couldn’t care less if he leaves.

Agree. Wouldn't be unhappy if he stayed but he's not really a worthy hill to die on. If Alston leaving means we can sign a competent Chris Millar-a-like then I'm all for it.

 

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1 hour ago, The Real Saints said:

Ghostie’s absolutely fuming. Bizarre. Blair Alston is the ultimate ‘meh’ player. Occasionally does well, is given the opportunity to replicate it and then puts in an ineffectual performance. I couldn’t care less if he leaves.

Surprised to hear Ghostie is desperate to have his voice heard about the most mundane of things, tbh. 

Alston leaving gets a big old shoulder shrug from me. Hes sort of all right in the middle and on the wing, exactly the type of squad player you maybe want, but I'm not going to cry if we sacrifice him to bring a better than alright central player.

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