Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Kyle]

2 minutes ago, The Woolshed said:

One final point from me tonight. Every time county had a corner today it felt like they could score and bar a couple of good blocks and saves they easily could have. Yet I can’t recall one of our set pieces giving us a clear cut chance, in fact from our corners this season I can barely recall a goal it at all? Is it the movement or quality of ball in? Same applies to all set pieces deliveries in

May scored a header from a corner against accies but other than that, I think you’re correct. 

[perthsaint1977]

It's just a complete cluster f*CK from week to week now.
Pulling names and either 523 or 352 out of a tombola and hoping it works.
We are in huge trouble and it appears only Callum doesn't see what's coming down the track.
Lucky to be gifted a penalty as I fear it would have been another game with no goal.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

13 minutes ago, CrieffSaint said:

I just struggle to get my head around playing wing backs and wingers in the same formation. Effectively just 4 guys who should all be doing a similar job punting balls into one striker who’s strength isn’t really getting on the end of crosses. Is the whole point of wing backs not that they work as wingers when going forward and full backs when defending?

Strip it back even more. 

Like you've said, strikers who's strength really isn't getting on the end of crosses. Why is the focus on getting it wide and crossing into the box the gameplan at all? Questionable. 

My feeling on it is similar to yours. Just results in to many players loitering in wide areas, mostly crowded out by each other, failing to get into an advantageous position to cross and then just lumping a nothing ball into the box. If you're firing crosses into players who aren't going to dominate you need to get into areas that make it difficult for defenders before crossing. We don't. 

It seems he wants the wingers narrow/cutting in off the wings and causing a threat that way. Which we know Spoony is good at. What I can't fathom from it is the plan to get the wide central defenders on the overlap etc. Kerr is alright on the ball but wouldn't say he's good enough to warrant encouraging him to get forward & on the other side Mccart is just typical Scottish League central defender on the ball and more often than not loses possession when he's higher up the park on the ball. 

Why not just play a more conventional shape and have players who are more comfortable in possession involved in the play further up the park? 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[Kyle]

A conventional shape which suits the players we have? That’ll never catch on. Complicated systems for our players, which the opposition managers we come up against figured out months ago, is clearly the way to go. 

[perthsaint1977]

I think 523 formation could be unreal If you had the correct players to play it. We sadly don't.

So don't be too proud, effectively the same team from last season that looked unbeatable for months is all still there, go back, copy it and try it for a spell.

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, perthsaint1977 said:

I think 523 formation could be unreal If you had the correct players to play it. We sadly don't.

I've said it before, but we're about 5/6 short of being able to play it as it "should" be played.

Literally every position would need improved on.

I hate to he cruel, as I like Davidson and what's he's trying, but every week Bill Shanklys quote is springing to mind.

"Football is a simple game, complicated by idiots who should know better"

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

Another thing I feel you need to play this 5-2-3 is two players of Mccanns mobility in the centre of the park as more often than not in Scotland you'll be a man short in there. 

Aside from Mccann we've got the complete opposite of that and it shows.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Another thing I feel you need to play this 5-2-3 is two players of Mccanns mobility in the centre of the park as more often than not in Scotland you'll be a man short in there. 

Aside from Mccann we've got the complete opposite of that. 

You need two wing backs who are quick, strong, good on the ball and able to beat players. You need two, intelligent, quick, strong, CMs good on the ball. You need 3 CBs comfortable on the ball and quick enough to cover ground. You need a central striker capable of winning balls into the box, but also able to drop deep and link, and you need two quick hard working wingers capable of playing off both feet.

It's a niche as f**k set up that could rip Scottish football a new arsehole if you had it perfect, but it's unlikely we'll ever have a collection of players who can pull it off consistently. 

I daresay if Davidson hadn't spent the past year watching Millwall play it then we wouldn't be bothering with it at all. It'll be a shame if he blows his chance at management due to a bizarre commitment to it tbh.

[perthsaint1977]

You need two wing backs who are quick, strong, good on the ball and able to beat players. You need two, intelligent, quick, strong, CMs good on the ball. You need 3 CBs comfortable on the ball and quick enough to cover ground. You need a central striker capable of winning balls into the box, but also able to drop deep and link, and you need two quick hard working wingers capable of playing off both feet.
It's a niche as f**k set up that could rip Scottish football a new arsehole if you had it perfect, but it's unlikely we'll ever have a collection of players who can pull it off consistently. 
I daresay if Davidson hadn't spent the past year watching Millwall play it then we wouldn't be bothering with it at all. It'll be a shame if he blows his chance at management due to a bizarre commitment to it tbh.

Surprised at macca or clelland not trying to get him to change it up.

[Costanza]

Does it work for Millwall? They are not exactly the second coming of Brazil 1970 the last I looked.   

[Kyle]

In what world is a Scottish football team - particularly one with a notoriously low budget - going to fulfil all that criteria across the pitch? Even the current rangers should would struggle to put out a team with all of those attributes and their budget must be 15 times ours. 

The more I see the more convinced I am that Davidson is going to fail. I don’t say that easily as I liked him as a player and I really want him to succeed but the signs are not good. 

[CrieffSaint]

What I can't fathom from it is the plan to get the wide central defenders on the overlap etc.

So this confuses me even more.

Out of your 10 outfield players you have 4 wingers/ wingbacks, 3 central defenders and 2 holding(ish) central midfielders. If you’re using the CB’s as an extra attacking threat (which I don’t really have much time for) you surely want them getting into central positions where they can attack balls into the box and use their physicality a bit. At present it seems he wants Jason Kerr to be pushing into areas already occupied by 2 guys delivering crap crosses into the box purely to deliver more crap crosses into the box.

No wonder we’re not scoring goals and don’t even get me started on starting Kane over May...

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Kyle said:

In what world is a Scottish football team - particularly one with a notoriously low budget - going to fulfil all that criteria across the pitch? Even the current rangers should would struggle to put out a team with all of those attributes and their budget must be 15 times ours. 
 

TBF its just my take on what I've read about the set up, Davidson might have a different idea of it and its maybe unfair for me to paint it as if exactly the same.

Heres a decent take on the general description of it...

https://fieldinsider.com/5-2-3-formation/#:~:text=Due to this layout the,as providing an attacking threat.

Like this quote...

Quote

Practically the only way to score when using the 5-2-3 formation is to play on the counterattack

 

[perthsaint1977]

In what world is a Scottish football team - particularly one with a notoriously low budget - going to fulfil all that criteria across the pitch? Even the current rangers should would struggle to put out a team with all of those attributes and their budget must be 15 times ours. 

The more I see the more convinced I am that Davidson is going to fail. I don’t say that easily as I liked him as a player and I really want him to succeed but the signs are not good. 

The big worry for me is the lack of any significant changes bar the odd random player change from him.
So is either blinkered in that he is seeing exactly what he wants or just out of his depth and unable to make any adjustments.

[The Woolshed]

Whilst I agree with the vast majority (I’m feeling this way myself, 5-7 points from the next 3, which really isn’t that far fetched would change the course of the season. There’s been plenty good in most games this season, we just can’t take chances. Mikey’s on Wednesday late on being a recent example of an absolute sitter that would have changed the complex of the league. We have also lacked a fair bit of luck in recent games so while I get and agree with much of the doom and gloom, it could change around very very quickly with one positive result. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by The Woolshed

[Costanza]

Do you think we'll get 5-7 points from the next three games? Can't see it at all am afraid. We are sleepwalking to relegation, the manager needs to wake up but shows no sign of it.

[The Woolshed]

3 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Do you think we'll get 5-7 points from the next three games? Can't see it at all am afraid. We are sleepwalking to relegation, the manager needs to wake up but shows no sign of it.

I think we can, but yeah I agree it’s probably not going to happen. I think if we can avoid defeat next weekend and then win at home to St Mirren we will then get something against Aberdeen. Even games we’ve lost recently (Rangers aside) have been very close games, the big moments of the game have just gone against us. I’m trying to just find any positives I can in all honesty

Edited January 2, 2021 by The Woolshed

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

19 minutes ago, Costanza said:

Does it work for Millwall? They are not exactly the second coming of Brazil 1970 the last I looked.   

@RandomGuy. Shared a quote from the manager at Milwall maybe 3 weeks ago talking about why he'd sacked off the 5-2-3 shape and word for word could have been describing our team, so very similar issues. 

 

[PauloPerth]

As well as all the good points raised here, how many goals have we actually scored, or even chances have we created, on the counter if that is the intention of the 5-2-3?

St Mirren at home, Accies away, killie away and won a penalty at home to Motherwell after winning it in midfield are the few I can think of. We (McCann mostly) win the ball in centre midfield a lot with the opportunity to counter on teams and invariably create nothing with it.

The vast majority of our deliveries into the box are into crowded penalty areas.  If we're going to insist with this formation (which I'm afraid we probably will keep returning to), we have to be getting wide players to take a touch and deliver it early.  We turn back and play about 3 passes too many far too often.  Also relies on getting bodies in the box to attack the ball.

 

[RandomGuy.]

42 minutes ago, perthsaint1977 said:

Surprised at macca or clelland not trying to get him to change it up.

Do you know how that dynamic all works?

I don't know how it usually is between managers/coaches tbh, but of the 3 you'd expect the most experienced one to be helping out. 

Guess Davidson needs to be his own man in a way, so lives or dies by his own decisions.

I know it'll never happen, and nor should it really, but it would be good to get an understanding of how Davidson imagines the 5-2-3 working with this group. Just now I think everyone's a bit confused about why he's sticking with it.