Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[PauloPerth]

Yep 4-5-1 on Saturday for me.

We have absolutely sleepwalked into this situation through idealism over a system that has delivered 8 points and 4 goals at home in 10 league games, and complacency that 'we just need to get the breaks and our luck will change'.

Either Davidson accepts a bit of reality or we really are in serious trouble.   

At the minute we should be second favourites to go down after County, who might well start to see improved results.

 

[tree house tam]

9 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

We have absolutely sleepwalked into this situation 

We really haven't though, we've all watched the games this season, I think we've played well and looked dangerous about twice.

[akuram]

We have certainly made a complete mess of the season so far.

Is Tommy still looking for a job?

It just gets worse and worse.

The reason --- we can't defend and we can't score which is a recipe for relegation.

[The Real Saints]

We are in trouble. We began the season slowly, but with the hope that the system would finally 'click' and we'd start seeing results. Our performances became very consistent: nice general play but with very little up front and regular lapses at the back. I was still hopeful that things might work out and we'd see an improvement. However, in the last few weeks, it has become clear that we've either lost our impetus or the opposition have started to figure us out.

We are never going to 'click' with this system. It needs to be changed immediately or we are in danger.

[PauloPerth]

35 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

We really haven't though, we've all watched the games this season, I think we've played well and looked dangerous about twice.

We’ve all been aware of it for ages, but I honestly think Davidson hasn’t believed we’re in trouble up til now.  He’s had such unswerving belief in how we’ve been setting up that I don’t know if he’s even questioned it yet.

[Radford]

Pretty patterns (or not) don't really matter. We can debate the aesthetics of the system but that comes down to preference. We all like to see football played a different way and there is no right or wrong there. 

What is important is does it help you have a strong defence and does it help you create chances and score goals?

Over the course of the whole season, the devil's advocate would point out that we concede fewer chances than just about everyone and create more shooting opportunities too. @RandomGuy. can discuss the quality of said chances but if they are out of sync, why does a team that gives little away, concede bad chances? Attacking is easier to explain if we are taking more speculative shots?

Is there an alternative system that is going to be more effective? Not better to watch but more effective. It would seem unlikely we can concede fewer chances so it would be about giving up less high quality chances. Again looking to @RandomGuy. but would that be about shutting down that "10" area?

We create a lot of chances, so the focus would turn to creating better ones but, and this relates to both going forward and defensively...

We still have the same strikers, the same centre backs and still have Zander Clark in goal. 

[PauloPerth]

6 minutes ago, Radford said:

Pretty patterns (or not) don't really matter. We can debate the aesthetics of the system but that comes down to preference. We all like to see football played a different way and there is no right or wrong there. 

What is important is does it help you have a strong defence and does it help you create chances and score goals?

Over the course of the whole season, the devil's advocate would point out that we concede fewer chances than just about everyone and create more shooting opportunities too. @RandomGuy. can discuss the quality of said chances but if they are out of sync, why does a team that gives little away, concede bad chances? Attacking is easier to explain if we are taking more speculative shots?

Is there an alternative system that is going to be more effective? Not better to watch but more effective. It would seem unlikely we can concede fewer chances so it would be about giving up less high quality chances. Again looking to @RandomGuy. but would that be about shutting down that "10" area?

We create a lot of chances, so the focus would turn to creating better ones but, and this relates to both going forward and defensively...

We still have the same strikers, the same centre backs and still have Zander Clark in goal. 

All fair comment. The thing for me isn’t that I’d say we should never use Callum’s preferred 5-2-3, it’s just that it becomes so predictable for opposition to play against when we use it every weak and the same weaknesses are exposed.  We have to be able to mix up how we set up and play.

When we were on a bad run last season we went to rugby park with a fairly defensive set up and played out a decent 0-0 draw which was the catalyst for a big upturn in results.  I think now is the time to do exactly that. Pittodrie is the perfect place for it, go there 5-4-1 or 4-5-1 with bodies behind the ball, and a sitting centre midfielder.  A 0-0 would give us a massive boost of confidence going into a couple of huge games against fellow strugglers.

With Parish in goal.

[18May1991]

2 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

 

When we were on a bad run last season we went to rugby park with a fairly defensive set up and played out a decent 0-0 draw which was the catalyst for a big upturn in results.  I think now is the time to do exactly that. Pittodrie is the perfect place for it, go there 5-4-1 or 4-5-1 with bodies behind the ball, and a sitting centre midfielder.  A 0-0 would give us a massive boost of confidence going into a couple of huge games against fellow strugglers.

 

Careful now, the Aberdeen fans won’t like it. Not with them being like the Brazil 1970 team and everything. 

[PauloPerth]

Just now, 18May1991 said:

Careful now, the Aberdeen fans won’t like it. Not with them being like the Brazil 1970 team and everything. 

It is my dream this season to read a Saints match thread where the opposition fans on here after a game are berating how brutal we were to watch after we’ve taken points off them.

 

[Lang Toon Saintee]

Anybody else think that we need to replace our goalkeeping coach ? 

[Kyle]

1 minute ago, Lang Toon Saintee said:

Anybody else think that we need to replace our goalkeeping coach ? 

You mean the head of our goalkeeping department? You do wonder, Clark has certainly regressed a lot since Mannus left. 

I still take issue with the point that we create loads of chances. Stats say that we do and I’d be an idiot to dispute that, but I never feel like we’re going to score at home, ever. Even when we do score it takes me by surprise. 

I hope the manager has identified the players he wants to bring in. His signings so far, McNamara aside, have left a lot to be desired. 

[Costanza]

The system is one thing here but the quality of some of our players is seriously in doubt. Clark - nothing needs to be said but elsewhere tonight, Bryson and Conway looked exactly what feared they are, players whose legs have gone. I know we are playing Rangers but their ball retention was abysmal. Throw Kane into that, I was happy enough with him starting but he’s not really a top level striker is he? Is Liam Gordon up to it (sorry Tam)? We are totally reliant on Spoony being on fire to be able to do anything. He’s not always going to be on fire, we know that. MOH was just idiotic, now misses more games where he might offer something different. All in all pretty down hearted this evening. Previously I’d always rely on TW to turn it round. That certainty is no longer on offer.

[PauloPerth]

Bryson and Conway are offering little. Conway looks guaranteed to start for as long as we’re playing the 3 across the front due to the lack of competition and MOH’s self destruct mode this season. I don’t think Bryson offers anymore than Liam Craig so far. 
 

Tough game for Melamed to come on in but the way he was hopelessly mistiming jumps for the ball you do wonder if he’s not quite up to it..

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

22 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Bryson and Conway are offering little. Conway looks guaranteed to start for as long as we’re playing the 3 across the front due to the lack of competition and MOH’s self destruct mode this season. I don’t think Bryson offers anymore than Liam Craig so far. 
 

Tough game for Melamed to come on in but the way he was hopelessly mistiming jumps for the ball you do wonder if he’s not quite up to it..

Was JUST sitting the same thing re Bryson. What are his qualities meant to be? Cant say I paid much attention to him down and England but presumed he was a box to box type player. If thats the case we've signed a box to box player's who's legs are gone. 

A lot of discussion about another Goalkeeper needed, which I agree with but based on Davidsons signings so far, do we trust him to find a better goal keeper? 100% failure record on signings so far. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[Shaggy Jenkins]

1 hour ago, Costanza said:

 Is Liam Gordon up to it (sorry Tam).

Been thinking about this a bit the last week and this can be said about mccaart, Kerr and Rooney.

They are all of a similar level and have heeps of potential. Indeed Gordon, mccaart and Kerr were beginning to look solid pre shutdown but for whatever reason they have regressed this year. Is this down to a more offensive focused back 3 v a more defensive TW back 3...? I don't know? 

To me I'm not sure it's an individual thing as It feels a bit unfair to replace either of them. undoubtedly there have been mistakes but they have never really looked out of their depth. However something defensively needs to get sorted.

What is clear is what we are doing is not working and they do not seem to be learning what CD wants. if they are not how long do we stick with them? Or does CD need to change the focus?

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

The issues are wide spread defensively. To use the second goal as an example. I've not watched it back as once was enough but... We win the ball but lands to Arribo loads of space he has all the time in the world to stroll forward and pick a pass - Davidson and Brysons job is to stop them playing. Don't allow them time on the ball etc. 

Despite Arribo taking his time to pick a pass no one bothers to pick up Kamara or follow him or... Really do anything to make it difficult for them? Gordon and co all just retreat in straight lines towards their own goal and it's easy for him to find his man. It's fairly basic stuff, at professional level if you don't track runners or put pressure you won't win games. 

The other goals on another day a goalkeeper up 7 acres saves those no bother. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Mr Positive, sometimes.

[RandomGuy.]

8 hours ago, Radford said:

Over the course of the whole season, the devil's advocate would point out that we concede fewer chances than just about everyone and create more shooting opportunities too. @RandomGuy. can discuss the quality of said chances but if they are out of sync, why does a team that gives little away, concede bad chances? Attacking is easier to explain if we are taking more speculative shots?

Think your last line nails it attacking wise. We rarely create decent chances at home and, its settled down now tbf, were hitting a lot of long range efforts early in the season. Dont want to plug my own work as that's weird, but looked into how our overall xG is broken down...

... and the majority of our chances are poor (19 0.01 shots is poor, yet 0.19 is good, this is where culminative xG doesn't sit right with me), yet add them all up and you get a decent xG score which is just plumbed into a league table and makes us look better than it should IMO. I know you asked for the same for teams coming to McDiarmid, and I'll try and do that over the next few days if I get a spare hour to try and see what it comes out like.

Away is much better, where we get pressed more and have less passes.

Again, I'll look at opposition teams against us home v away and see what happens. A feeling we'll find that we give opposition better chances at home than away but every chance I'm wrong. 

Quote

Is there an alternative system that is going to be more effective? Not better to watch but more effective. It would seem unlikely we can concede fewer chances so it would be about giving up less high quality chances. Again looking to @RandomGuy. but would that be about shutting down that "10" area?

I think we have players who have a weakness against counter attacks (none of the CMs are "athletic enough, even McCann, nor are either wing back IMO, Rooney might help if he's moved to RWB tbh), and who can't break teams down, but the style we play just now exploits that, especially the CMs who are being asked to cover too much ground in transitions. They just can't play this way and are getting caught advancing too easily, so surely having at least one of them staying back even when we win the ball would help? Say Craig remains as a DM in front of a back 4 for 90 minutes, McCann always gets forward, Davidson gets trusted to pick his moments? Surely that would stop us being wide open when we lose the ball. I found the "hole" in midfield by watching every chance we'd conceded back the night I posted it up, so its clearly an issue in terms of the chances going against us to me. When you have opposition players with a free run at the heart of your defence in open play, and also can't defend set pieces well (our marking at set pieces, especially deep free kicks, is just wild), then you'll give up chances in your own box regularly.

I mean, all this is caveated by the fact we will give away chances over the course of a game, and it'll be almost impossible to prevent teams finding space in our half every time, so we need a goalkeeper who can actually makes saves. Zander Clark is single handedly destroying xG models by conceding such shit goals. 

Just some early morning thoughts/ramblings.

Edited December 24, 2020 by RandomGuy.

[nelsjfc]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/6447079/st-johnstone-clark-media-wall-tv-stunning-living-room/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


This felt important.

[Radford]

Think there is some harsh stuff above. McNamara has been a good signing, so that's a credit to Davidson. He got the job a few days before pre-season. Across the league, manager's will have been working on targets and planning windows in advance. He made the decision to bring in guys he knew a lot about. I think everyone was worried about the legs and it probably looks valid but I find it hard to be critical of a manager trying to find players at short notice with the resources afforded them at Saints. The time to judge him will be next summer when he can put a proper mark on the squad. 

The defence can tighten up and if Gordon prides himself on being vocal and an organiser, he needs to make sure it's not just empty words but the second goal is on the midfield/system. They are both caught ahead of the ball and it's a hard situation for the centre backs to defend against. I'm not going to throw them under the bus for that.

I do accept that Tommy Wright would be losing sleep over the lack of clean sheets and would be setting out to rectify that. We do need to get back to that, especially since goals aren't exactly easy to come by for us. Of course, as shown by @RandomGuy. last night, we only need to concede 2 shots on target to concede with Clark in goal, so a good start would be replacing him ASAP.

I still trust Callum Davidson to get things right but all managers need to keep the support onside in their early days. 

[tree house tam]

27 minutes ago, nelsjfc said:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/6447079/st-johnstone-clark-media-wall-tv-stunning-living-room/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true


This felt important.

Would Saints get insurance money if Zander had a nasty accident due to a spillage on his shiny floor?

 

Now I'm not advocating someone should squirt fairy liquid through an open window but if we can come out of this better off then it wouldn't be a bad idea.