Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Frank Grimes]

This is ages away but I will likely be in Perth on the night of the play off Final 

Assuming we beat Israel, where’s good in your fine city for watching Scotland games? 

[tree house tam]

1 hour ago, Frank Grimes said:

This is ages away but I will likely be in Perth on the night of the play off Final 

Assuming we beat Israel, where’s good in your fine city for watching Scotland games? 

Probably the Foundry, best of a bad bunch I suppose.

[mizfit]

This is ages away but I will likely be in Perth on the night of the play off Final 
Assuming we beat Israel, where’s good in your fine city for watching Scotland games? 

Go small - Christie’s or something similar.

[SlipperyP]

3 hours ago, Frank Grimes said:

This is ages away but I will likely be in Perth on the night of the play off Final 

Assuming we beat Israel, where’s good in your fine city for watching Scotland games? 

The Welcome Inn - Rannoch Road. 

[tree house tam]

4 hours ago, SlipperyP said:

The Welcome Inn - Rannoch Road. 

Just re-opened, it's in the middle of Aleppo but within staggering distance to Randoms for some kip/shot of his burd, good choice.

[Valentino Bolognese]

8 hours ago, mizfit said:

Go small - Christie’s or something similar.

 

 

I'd agree with that.

Just to help the OP and stop them getting lost, if you're looking for a bar in Perth called Christies you'll find it's called the King James. Like Mennies in Dundee, the sign above the door is different to the local name. 

 

[Frank Grimes]

Cheers lads 

[steviemay17]

anyone feeling confident for the January window?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5042736/st-johnstone-tommy-wright-robert-thomson/

[RandomGuy.]

37 minutes ago, steviemay17 said:

anyone feeling confident for the January window?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5042736/st-johnstone-tommy-wright-robert-thomson/

Just confirming what we all already know, tbf.

Look at our signings last January and see how much hope it gives you.

Cammy Bell (loan), Niall Keown (loan), Sean Goss (loan), Michael O'Halloran 

Theres zero forward planning. We let go of Easton, Anderson and Shaughnessy this Summer, likely decisions that were made in January, almost 12 months later and the only defensive player who didnt feel like a signing of circumstance (Ralston a quick deal after Foster went rogue/Booth after his release from Bury and is well known) is Wallace fucking Duffy. 

It's hard to ignore the amount of players we sign for the first team and then dump within a year. If the manager doesnt rate them that highly why are we giving multi-year contracts to players like Callachan and McMillan? That's ignoring Madis Vihmann, who considering he cant get ahead of Duffy in the first team must be one of the worst players we've ever seen, being signed on a 12 month loan with an option to make it permanent...

I'd be surprised if they dont have available targets known to them, as we've been fairly open about wanting an experienced CB and agents will be getting in touch, how much will we actually know about them when they're signed though?

Edited December 8, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[Valentino Bolognese]

16 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Just confirming what we all already know, tbf.

Interesting article on an aspect of Saints that's not often covered in the mainstream press, but absolutely indicative of the club as a whole. The last progressive thing we did was McDairmid Park, and look behind the scenes at McDairmid and it's like a local bowling club. It's staid, conservative, and reeks of 'done on a budget'. It's a time capsule. Look at our embarrassing marketing and social media under-investment, see how long it's taken to get electronic ticketing etc. But hey, I'm sure we're doing a roaring trade in funeral receptions and rotary club meetings. 

The article is right, if you stay still while others move forward, you're moving backwards. Investing in good people in the right senior positions should not be seen as a risk. 

Despite all that though we should still stay up this year. But IMO ownership is due a change, as we need a new approach and our owners aren't known for being progressive. 

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Valentino Bolognese said:

But IMO ownership is due a change, as we need a new approach and our owners aren't known for being progressive. 

Not for me, Steve Brown still runs the club well financially and that should always be important. He definitely needs to adapt though, this bloated, shitheap of a squad we have just now should be a red flag about where we're heading if nothing changes.

Martin Foyle who's named in that article is just this years Steve Marsella, who worked wonders for ICT, I'm sure he's now the Chief Scout at Kilmarnock. Who's our chief scout?

[Valentino Bolognese]

24 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Not for me, Steve Brown still runs the club well financially and that should always be important. He definitely needs to adapt though, this bloated, shitheap of a squad we have just now should be a red flag about where we're heading if nothing changes.

Martin Foyle who's named in that article is just this years Steve Marsella, who worked wonders for ICT, I'm sure he's now the Chief Scout at Kilmarnock. Who's our chief scout?

Don't want this to get into the type of discussion that makes me run a mile from WAP these days but suffice to say I don't necessarily agree we are particularly well run. Not spending money is actually really easy. The problem is as above that  more ambitious, faster moving businesses go past you. I just hate that the limit of our ambition seems to be 'not going bankrupt', however sensible that may Not saying we should abandon all prudence but a bit less risk aversion may well be in order or we'll be basking in the glory of being one of the best run clubs in the Championship. 

 

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Don't want this to get into the type of discussion that makes me run a mile from WAP these days but suffice to say I don't necessarily agree we are particularly well run. Not spending money is actually really easy. The problem is as above that  more ambitious, faster moving businesses go past you. I just hate that the limit of our ambition seems to be 'not going bankrupt', however sensible that may Not saying we should abandon all prudence but a bit less risk aversion may well be in order or we'll be basking in the glory of being one of the best run clubs in the Championship. 

Made my point on there we aren't a well run football club, but are a well run business. At our level you need a bit of both.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Who's our chief scout?

Just because I'm saft, here's every other top flight clubs head of scouting, and what I can find out about their set ups...

Spoiler

Aberdeen - Russ Richardson (previously at Bristol City and Preston) based in England - Two scouts based in Scotland (Tom O'Neil and Nobby Clark)

Celtic - Nick Hammond (previously at Reading and WBA) - Ten other scouts, all based around the UK and Europe

Hamilton - Lee McCafferty (Previously at Hibernian) - One further scout (Keith Glendinning)

Hearts - John Murray (Chief Scout for 5 years) - No further details around, but Austin McPhee claimed they had scouts based in England and Europe just last year

Hibernian - George Craig (Previously at Falkirk, runs all operations to ensure signings and talented youngsters don't get in each others way) - Graeme Mathie below him as Head of Recruitment, Michael Meechan is then below him as Chief Scout. Same as Hearts that no further scouts are named, but claim they have scouts in England and Europe.

Kilmarnock - James Fowler (runs all recruitment and scouting) - Four further scouts named (Peter Clarke, Steven Lapham, Mo Coll, Brian Smith)

Livingston - Kai Arthurs (Hired for 5 years) - Brian McClain joined from Rangers 3 years ago

Motherwell - Martin Foyle (Manager at clubs like Port Vale and Hereford, Head of Recruitment at Northampton before joining) - 3 other Scouts named (Martyn Corrigan/Stuart Ogilvie in Scotland, Brown in England)

Rangers - Mark Allen (Director of Football, oversees transfer targets to fit squad and youth prospects) - Chief Scout is Andy Scoulding, another four British based scouts named, also claim to have scouts in Europe.

Ross County - No information

St Mirren - Gus McPherson (Technical Director, oversees scouting and recruitment) - One further scout listed

 

St Johnstone - Manager confirmed there are no scouts

 

TL;DR St Johnstone and Ross County are the only top flight sides without permanent scouts. Hamilton, Ross County and Hamilton the only clubs who don't have someone overseeing scouting and recruitment. 

If you look at Motherwell and Kilmarnock as teams we should be competing with, both have a Head of Recruitment, Killie have 4 scouts, Motherwell have 3. We have nothing.

Worst thing is I'm not even sure it would be that hard to get someone, Dundee United managed to poach Hartlepools Chief Scout last year. Just spit a random name out and you get John Brown, currently just a Scout for Blackburn, but 4 years experience scouting with them, and experience of scouting for Newcastle, York, Rotherham and Oldham in his career. He has a massive connection list of LinkedIn (500+) with the majority being fellow scouts. You'd think the chance of a promotion to being the head of our recruitment would tempt someone like that, even just as a springboard to then get the same job back down there in a few years, chuck in a local scout up here who'd scout Scottish games, and suddenly you're starting to see far more players. You can then either have the HOR and TW speaking, or bring in a Technical Director type based here to oversee it all.

Edited December 8, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[steviemay17]

45 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Just because I'm saft, here's every other top flight clubs head of scouting, and what I can find out about their set ups...

  Hide contents

Aberdeen - Russ Richardson (previously at Bristol City and Preston) based in England - Two scouts based in Scotland (Tom O'Neil and Nobby Clark)

Celtic - Nick Hammond (previously at Reading and WBA) - Ten other scouts, all based around the UK and Europe

Hamilton - Lee McCafferty (Previously at Hibernian) - One further scout (Keith Glendinning)

Hearts - John Murray (Chief Scout for 5 years) - No further details around, but Austin McPhee claimed they had scouts based in England and Europe just last year

Hibernian - George Craig (Previously at Falkirk, runs all operations to ensure signings and talented youngsters don't get in each others way) - Graeme Mathie below him as Head of Recruitment, Michael Meechan is then below him as Chief Scout. Same as Hearts that no further scouts are named, but claim they have scouts in England and Europe.

Kilmarnock - James Fowler (runs all recruitment and scouting) - Four further scouts named (Peter Clarke, Steven Lapham, Mo Coll, Brian Smith)

Livingston - Kai Arthurs (Hired for 5 years) - Brian McClain joined from Rangers 3 years ago

Motherwell - Martin Foyle (Manager at clubs like Port Vale and Hereford, Head of Recruitment at Northampton before joining) - 3 other Scouts named (Martyn Corrigan/Stuart Ogilvie in Scotland, Brown in England)

Rangers - Mark Allen (Director of Football, oversees transfer targets to fit squad and youth prospects) - Chief Scout is Andy Scoulding, another four British based scouts named, also claim to have scouts in Europe.

Ross County - No information

St Mirren - Gus McPherson (Technical Director, oversees scouting and recruitment) - One further scout listed

 

St Johnstone - Manager confirmed there are no scouts

 

TL;DR St Johnstone and Ross County are the only top flight sides without permanent scouts. Hamilton, Ross County and Hamilton the only clubs who don't have someone overseeing scouting and recruitment. 

If you look at Motherwell and Kilmarnock as teams we should be competing with, both have a Head of Recruitment, Killie have 4 scouts, Motherwell have 3. We have nothing.

Worst thing is I'm not even sure it would be that hard to get someone, Dundee United managed to poach Hartlepools Chief Scout last year. Just spit a random name out and you get John Brown, currently just a Scout for Blackburn, but 4 years experience scouting with them, and experience of scouting for Newcastle, York, Rotherham and Oldham in his career. He has a massive connection list of LinkedIn (500+) with the majority being fellow scouts. You'd think the chance of a promotion to being the head of our recruitment would tempt someone like that, even just as a springboard to then get the same job back down there in a few years, chuck in a local scout up here who'd scout Scottish games, and suddenly you're starting to see far more players. You can then either have the HOR and TW speaking, or bring in a Technical Director type based here to oversee it all.

Don't know if i've said this point before but I'm currently the Scottish scout for and English league club, offered my services to Saints for free and got told there are no positions at the club.

Now I might be utterly shit, but still...

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, steviemay17 said:

Don't know if i've said this point before but I'm currently the Scottish scout for and English league club, offered my services to Saints for free and got told there are no positions at the club.

Think that sums everything up nicely.

[nelsjfc]

I'm sure Coulston, Tanser and Wright were watched long term before signing and remember reading about at least one of them being scouted before signing. So imagine something is in place.

Like a lot of what we do (PR, ticketing, merchandising etc) seems to heavily hint at a complete lack of professionalism.

[steviemay17]

1 minute ago, nelsjfc said:

I'm sure Coulston, Tanser and Wright were watched long term before signing and remember reading about at least one of them being scouted before signing. So imagine something is in place.

Like a lot of what we do (PR, ticketing, merchandising etc) seems to heavily hint at a complete lack of professionalism.

Wasn't Tanser brought in on trial as a desperation move after injuries to Easton and whoever else was the cover at left back?

[nelsjfc]

Wasn't Tanser brought in on trial as a desperation move after injuries to Easton and whoever else was the cover at left back?

You maybe correct actually.

The other two the club made big noises about how long they watched and waited for them though

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Just because I'm saft, here's every other top flight clubs head of scouting, and what I can find out about their set ups...

  Reveal hidden contents

Aberdeen - Russ Richardson (previously at Bristol City and Preston) based in England - Two scouts based in Scotland (Tom O'Neil and Nobby Clark)

Celtic - Nick Hammond (previously at Reading and WBA) - Ten other scouts, all based around the UK and Europe

Hamilton - Lee McCafferty (Previously at Hibernian) - One further scout (Keith Glendinning)

Hearts - John Murray (Chief Scout for 5 years) - No further details around, but Austin McPhee claimed they had scouts based in England and Europe just last year

Hibernian - George Craig (Previously at Falkirk, runs all operations to ensure signings and talented youngsters don't get in each others way) - Graeme Mathie below him as Head of Recruitment, Michael Meechan is then below him as Chief Scout. Same as Hearts that no further scouts are named, but claim they have scouts in England and Europe.

Kilmarnock - James Fowler (runs all recruitment and scouting) - Four further scouts named (Peter Clarke, Steven Lapham, Mo Coll, Brian Smith)

Livingston - Kai Arthurs (Hired for 5 years) - Brian McClain joined from Rangers 3 years ago

Motherwell - Martin Foyle (Manager at clubs like Port Vale and Hereford, Head of Recruitment at Northampton before joining) - 3 other Scouts named (Martyn Corrigan/Stuart Ogilvie in Scotland, Brown in England)

Rangers - Mark Allen (Director of Football, oversees transfer targets to fit squad and youth prospects) - Chief Scout is Andy Scoulding, another four British based scouts named, also claim to have scouts in Europe.

Ross County - No information

St Mirren - Gus McPherson (Technical Director, oversees scouting and recruitment) - One further scout listed

 

St Johnstone - Manager confirmed there are no scouts

 

TL;DR St Johnstone and Ross County are the only top flight sides without permanent scouts. Hamilton, Ross County and Hamilton the only clubs who don't have someone overseeing scouting and recruitment. 

If you look at Motherwell and Kilmarnock as teams we should be competing with, both have a Head of Recruitment, Killie have 4 scouts, Motherwell have 3. We have nothing.

Worst thing is I'm not even sure it would be that hard to get someone, Dundee United managed to poach Hartlepools Chief Scout last year. Just spit a random name out and you get John Brown, currently just a Scout for Blackburn, but 4 years experience scouting with them, and experience of scouting for Newcastle, York, Rotherham and Oldham in his career. He has a massive connection list of LinkedIn (500+) with the majority being fellow scouts. You'd think the chance of a promotion to being the head of our recruitment would tempt someone like that, even just as a springboard to then get the same job back down there in a few years, chuck in a local scout up here who'd scout Scottish games, and suddenly you're starting to see far more players. You can then either have the HOR and TW speaking, or bring in a Technical Director type based here to oversee it all.

I clocked your post on WAP the other day talking about you guys getting "left behind" by teams like Motherwell and thought this was precisely the sort of thing you were meaning especially given the context of the conversation (we've massively improved our Strength & Conditioning department and the Academy stuff is well documented). It seemed weird (or maybe not) that the guy you were replying to tried to flip it to on the field performance - which seemed to entirely miss the point.

When you break it down with all the other clubs it's an eye-opener. 

Robinson spoke about recruitment at length in the official podcast that went up the other week (it's on Spotify here and also here). It seems odd that we're as keen to broadcast that as publicly as we do but there you go. The gist (if you've no real interest in listening) is that the HOR will end up watching players 3 or 4 times before Robinson even gets involved and goes to watch in person. We end up with a shortlist at which point Robinson advises who he wants to go for and it's handed over, presumably to Burrows to negotiate. There's a clear structure in place though.

In a practical sense you can see how it works, you've mentioned it before, if one deal falls through then there's a back-up been scouted. Even recently we lost Dunne for 6 months this season we went out and brought in Bevis Mugabi who was a free agent and has slotted in pretty much seamlessly. I guess you can compare that to your scenario missing out on Gallagher.

According to Robinson we'd been keeping an eye on Gallagher for 2 years before he signed and I'm pretty sure he mentioned that we'd spent a while watching Polworth as well.

Robert Thomson's article mentions Martin Foyle and the money that's been generated through the recruitment/player trading - looking at our accounts on Companies House since 2017 we've brought in over £2m in "gains on disposal of player registrations". I'd guess that Foyle's salary is a fraction of that (obviously) - he's been with the club since 2015.

All in all I'd imagine that a small bit of investment in support staff could make TW's life a lot easier.

Edited December 8, 2019 by capt_oats