Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[RandomGuy.]

30 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

I was one of those who were sceptical about May, but in the air today he was simply dreadful. 

Has May ever been that good in the air?

He was awful for us a lone striker in his last spell, so I'm not too sure what the thinking is that he'll somehow be better at it now that hes got no knees or confidence. This bizarre tactic of thumping balls over defenders, instead of at them, due to May not bothering to challenge half the time, despite May not actually being quicker than the centre halves, sort of highlighted things.

Genuinely feels like we signed him without any idea how we'd actually use him. Seems confused about his role and spends half the time standing beside centre halves, and the other half just drifting about never getting the ball.

Just now, ali_91 said:

For those wanting him gone, who replaces him? 

I dont think this should be the argument against sacking him. 

I dont want him gone, but at the end of the day hes taken the biggest budget in the clubs history, and built a squad that sees Wallace Duffy as first choice centre back.

Hes built the squad, hes managed the team who've won 6 games, in all competitions, in 10 months, and hes the manager who's seen us go 9 games without a win at the start of the season.

Would a fresh look at things be a bad thing?

[Valentino Bolognese]

3 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

If Saints get rid of Tommy Wright I can see us quickly going back to being a yo-yo club in the Ross County/ICT/Dundee vein. 
 

It’s incredibly important to think rationally at times like this, and he has proven he’s a manager of the highest standard.
 

Since taking over from Lomas (so ignoring a third placed finish in his first full season at the club) we’ve finished sixth, fourth, fourth, fourth, eighth and seventh. That’s exceptionally good, and even the eighth and seventh placed finishes would have seen us the envy of similarly placed clubs in the country. That sort of consistency for a club our size and with our budget is a testament to the job he has done.

I wasn’t there today, but I’ve seen enough to know there is talent and points in this group of players. Hibs, Aberdeen and Ross County were all well rounded performances, and the points will come.

Ali, I'm not making comment directly on TW as I broadly agree with what you're saying. 

However I would say that if you were there today it did seem to be a different St Johnstone to the one we've seen so far this season. So far we've had a younger team slowly putting together more competent performances but struggling to get wins. Today we were utterly horrible against poor opposition and, to me, it wasn't a lack of technical ability it was more that it was a group of players who were very far indeed from playing as a team. I wasn't joking about the corners thing - there was a point where there seemed to be no idea who was supposed to be taking them. 

I am not suggesting we get rid of Tommy as he has earned the right to dig us out, but based on today we are in proper trouble now. 

[saint in exile]

4 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

Spend the whole summer focussed on signing a striker who has barely scored in 4 years, can't win headers and can't play as a lone striker.

Blast a big proportion of our available budget on signing him to the detriment of the rest of the squad, stick him up front on his own.  

Pad out the defensive options with a 20 year old whose never played a first team game, and a lad from another country that you've seen play once. Loan out one of your few experienced defenders, one of the biggest earners, to a team two divisions below.  I don't give a f**k what anyone says, Steven Anderson would have made a big difference in that team today. We definitely need a big nasty centre back right now who'll kick folk and dominate them. There must be a free agent available somewhere.

One man is to blame for this debacle. And no way should he be sacked. He should be made to stay and sort this fucking mess out!!

 

Bang on there.Its the lack of a big bad CB that's done us here.Tommys belief in Kerr is way off the mark.To give him the captaincy and have him as the main defender is poor judgement and certainly isn't doing Kerrs confidence any good.

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by saint in exile

[Valentino Bolognese]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Has May ever been that good in the air?

He was awful for us a lone striker in his last spell, so I'm not too sure what the thinking is that he'll somehow be better at it now that hes got no knees or confidence. This bizarre tactic of thumping balls over defenders, instead of at them, due to May not bothering to challenge half the time, despite May not actually being quicker than the centre halves, sort of highlighted things.

Genuinely feels like we signed him without any idea how we'd actually use him. Seems confused about his role and spends half the time standing beside centre halves, and the other half just drifting about never getting the ball.

That's true but historically he would challenge at least. Today was surreal, sometimes he was looking in the wrong direction when the ball was coming his way. 

He looked like a man with a concussion for a lot of the game today. 

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

I wasn't joking about the corners thing - there was a point where there seemed to be no idea who was supposed to be taking them. 

It was a free kick I remember.

Everyone just stood staring until Drey Wright eventually wandered over, presumably because he was nearest to the ball and nobody else had bothered. 

The sequence of play where Ralston, Holt and MOH played about 10 square balls to each other about 40 yards out, while everyone just stood still and stared at them, was the most bizarre moment for me. I wish I could GIF it as folk probably think it's just me over exaggerating it. So many players happy to shun responsibility.

Kennedy was getting fucking pelters from the St Mirren support every time something he tried didnt come off, and he was clearly absolutely fucked by the end, but he was still demanding the ball and trying something with it. MOH tried his best but had nothing to work with up front and was surrounded every time he had the ball. The rest of the "attack" should be embarrassed, just cowardly stuff.

Just now, Valentino Bolognese said:

That's true but historically he would challenge at least. Today was surreal, sometimes he was looking in the wrong direction when the ball was coming his way. 

He looked like a man with a concussion for a lot of the game today. 

He doesnt have a clue what hes meant to be doing. It's like hes caught between wanting to drop deep and link play, and getting in behind and trying to score. He sometimes drifts left too, but we also had Kennedy and Swanson doing that.

Do you blame him for that or the manager?

[RandomGuy.]

The last time we opened a top flight season with no wins in 9 games, we were relegated with 21 points.

In the opening 9 games we had drawn 3, including a 1-1 draw with Aberdeen and a 2-2 draw with Livingston. We started that season with a defeat away to Celtic.

In our 9th game we lost to the team who would finish one place above us.

Spooky.

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

While the squad is heavily unbalanced, which is undoubtably Tommy’s fault, Wallace Duffy is not first choice centre back, and that kind of hyperbole isn’t helpful.

Who is then? I'm fairly sure Liam Gordon is missing with injury for the majority of time left of this calender year.

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

Liam Gordon and Jason Kerr are our first choice centre backs. Liam Gordon is injured and therefore our back up centre backs compete for his place. Wallace Duffy obviously shouldn’t be our primary cover for such an important position, but he’s not first choice. 

What?

As of this very moment, and for likely the entire next round of fixtures, Wallace Duffy is first choice centre back. We could be over halfway through the season before Gordon is back, and even then it's not as if we've been any better with him is it? We've conceded 9 goals in his 5 games this season.

You can't build a team that's reliant on 11 players. TW has built a squad that relies on Wallace Duffy, or Vihmann, stepping into the team and performing when needed. If they aren't up to it, it's on him. 

I still dont see why we've went with MOH, Kennedy, Swanson, Wright and Wotherspoon when we've got so little quality in the spine of the team.

Edited October 19, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

This is a ridiculous argument. If I go out for a meal and want a steak but the restaurant have sold out so I have to have a burger does that make a burger my first choice? 

Whether we’ve been better with him or not is irrelevant, he’s our first choice centre back, not Wallace Duffy. 

It makes a burger your first choice from what's available. Liam Gordon is not available, so Duffy is now first choice.

A kid with about 10 senior games is our starting centre back.

Tommy Wright is experienced enough to know that you need a solid defence to win things, why hes gambled on the opposite I dont know, but it's a mistake he'll hopefully learn from. Sadly I think it's too late for us this season to rectify it, by the time January rolls around itll be too late.

Edited October 19, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[The Saintee]

Presumably Tommy was expecting Vihmann to be less shite.

[RandomGuy.]

9 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

Presumably Tommy was expecting Vihmann to be less shite.

Based on one match for Estonia, by the sounds of things. 

[The Saintee]

Has Tommy been too loyal to Swanson, MOH and May? Expected them to just return to past glories when evidence might suggest otherwise?

[PauloPerth]

To be fair, as dreadful as we were in that second half, I genuinely feel one experienced decent centre back would make a world of difference. 

Kerr actually had a good first half I thought, apart from the first goal, where the whole back line looked poor.  Put a decent bit of experience at centre back alongside him and the whole team would get a lift.

I imagine there's not many free agents kicking about, but I'd be scouring the land this week looking for someone who's without a club and could do a job.

We might not have any budget set aside, but it genuinely could be the difference between being out of touch by January and giving ourself a chance of turning things around.

To think, we probably mocked when st Mirren signed Broadfoot. We would kill for a defender like him right now.

There is so little faith in the defence currently, its spread fear and lack of belief right through the team.  We need to do something decisive about it, as the confidence issue will only worsen the longer we go without a win.

 

[Radford]

Anyone who mocked St Mirren signing Broadfoot was being very stupid, in fairness. Look at the defence he was part of last season. Probably like the foolish opposition fans that used to criticise Anderson and Wright. 

[RandomGuy.]

I'd be absolutely fucking stunned if there was a top flight quality, experienced, centre back as a free agent in October who'll be affordable.

Its too late to try and resolve that.

FWIW I still cant shake the feeling we pulled out of the deal for Gallagher to get O'Halloran. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[RandomGuy.]

11 hours ago, mizfit said:

 

 

My concern is that we go cheap to replace him, and end up with a McCoist, or a heavily inexpert manager who wouldn’t have the experience to deal with a relegation battle.

 

 

No chance we'd go for McCoist.

The obvious suggestion would be Jack Ross, who's stock is low in England, and who'll be wanting to "do a McInnes" and come up here to restore his reputation to get another shot down there.

Hes not achieved enough up here to really warrant a job at one on the bigger clubs either, so could be a case of all the stars aligning to see him join us.

I'm not convinced hes a better manager than TW, at all, but would offer a different perspective on a squad that you maybe worry TW has too much of an opinion on.

[Valentino Bolognese]

7 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

To be fair, as dreadful as we were in that second half, I genuinely feel one experienced decent centre back would make a world of difference. 

Kerr actually had a good first half I thought, apart from the first goal, where the whole back line looked poor.  Put a decent bit of experience at centre back alongside him and the whole team would get a lift.

I imagine there's not many free agents kicking about, but I'd be scouring the land this week looking for someone who's without a club and could do a job.

We might not have any budget set aside, but it genuinely could be the difference between being out of touch by January and giving ourself a chance of turning things around.

To think, we probably mocked when st Mirren signed Broadfoot. We would kill for a defender like him right now.

There is so little faith in the defence currently, its spread fear and lack of belief right through the team.  We need to do something decisive about it, as the confidence issue will only worsen the longer we go without a win.

 

Normally agree with you but I'm afraid this time I think you're underplaying the problems. 

I really isn't just a CB we need. 9 games plus the cup matches and we have to face up to having a real issue at CB, keeper and up front. Zander's all over the shop this year and May is not looking like the answer (and is not playing in the right shape) and we have no other viable option. We basically have no strikers. Wright isn't making the impact yet coming back from injury, Swanson is at best inconsistent, Holt still not sure. The only players that look to have turned up for the season are Tanser, McCann and Kennedy who is really struggling as he has nobody around him. MOH I also feel a bit sorry for, for similar reasons. 

In the middle Holt has looked good in patches and Murray is Murray, but he's no better than the other physical midfielders in the division. Ralston, Gordon, Duffy all promising but young and because of that need to be in a defence with experience. 

All of this is a huge headache for Tommy who can't seem to find a settled best 11 and can't flex the a formation to get a tune out of what could be a decent squad because the squad he's built basically prevents us playing 3 at the back or 2 up front. There has to be a degree of blame for this, which it sounds like he is admitting. I'll keep the faith for the time being but this is a massive test of how good a manager we have.  If there aren't dressing room problems already, there soon will be and once again players were blaming each other on the park.

Will look on selection for Hamilton with interest, and I'll be pissed off if my email from Tommy uses the phrase 'disappointing result'.

[RandomGuy.]

46 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Will look on selection for Hamilton with interest.

Will see how he views the squad with that one.

For me he has to have Wotherspoon on the left. I fucking drone on about it, but he gives us a balance and even if hes not playing well on the ball, hes good enough off it to help the players around him. McCann has to start, not sure why he was dropped.

Kennedy has to start, and O'Halloran has to start. May probably has to start too considering the alternatives. Ralston didnt do much wrong so put him in too.

Clark, Duffy, Kerr, Holt, Davidson, Swanson and Wright are all under threat after that "performance" yesterday. TW seemed absolutely raging at Tanser for some of his passes in the second half too, so will probably throw a huff and drop him.

is how I'd go. We aren't going to resolve the defensive issues by changing the shape. The first goal comes from a set piece which is just horrendous. Vihmann should help there but hes looked hopeless any time hes been on the park. Davidson is saved simply by the fact we need to be building relationships in the squad, every week we have different wingers in front of the full backs, and different combinations in the middle of the park. I'd be sticking with that eleven for the next next month or so and seeing how it goes, I don't think anyone not in there can complain theyve been left out.

Edited October 20, 2019 by RandomGuy.

[PauloPerth]

44 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Normally agree with you but I'm afraid this time I think you're underplaying the problems. 

I really isn't just a CB we need. 9 games plus the cup matches and we have to face up to having a real issue at CB, keeper and up front. Zander's all over the shop this year and May is not looking like the answer (and is not playing in the right shape) and we have no other viable option. We basically have no strikers. Wright isn't making the impact yet coming back from injury, Swanson is at best inconsistent, Holt still not sure. The only players that look to have turned up for the season are Tanser, McCann and Kennedy who is really struggling as he has nobody around him. MOH I also feel a bit sorry for, for similar reasons. 

In the middle Holt has looked good in patches and Murray is Murray, but he's no better than the other physical midfielders in the division. Ralston, Gordon, Duffy all promising but young and because of that need to be in a defence with experience. 

All of this is a huge headache for Tommy who can't seem to find a settled best 11 and can't flex the a formation to get a tune out of what could be a decent squad because the squad he's built basically prevents us playing 3 at the back or 2 up front. There has to be a degree of blame for this, which it sounds like he is admitting. I'll keep the faith for the time being but this is a massive test of how good a manager we have.  If there aren't dressing room problems already, there soon will be and once again players were blaming each other on the park.

Will look on selection for Hamilton with interest, and I'll be pissed off if my email from Tommy uses the phrase 'disappointing result'.

To be competitive in the bottom half, a strong centre back would make a massive difference. Tanser and Ralston are decent enough. We know Clark is a good enough keeper for this division, he's just way off form, like others.

Teams are built on a solid foundation. The lack of trust in the defence is underpinning the entire team and probably a factor in so many not performing.  And the midfield has to take its share of the blame, particularly yesterday, where we barely won a tackle and let st Mirren players run off us to get onto clearances by our CB's/ flicks from their strikers time and time again.

I agree with what you are saying about up front as well longer term, but I think we have enough amongst the wide/ forward players to be able to get a few goals and therefore wins if we become capable of keeping clean sheets.

As RG says, where do you get a centre back now?  I'm just thinking Dundee somehow managed it with Caulker a couple of seasons ago, so who knows..

[Valentino Bolognese]

4 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Will see how he views the squad with that one.

For me he has to have Wotherspoon on the left. I fucking drone on about it, but he gives us a balance and even if hes not playing well on the ball, hes good enough off it to help the players around him. McCann has to start, not sure why he was dropped.

Kennedy has to start, and O'Halloran has to start. May probably has to start too considering the alternatives. Ralston didnt do much wrong so put him in too.

Clark, Duffy, Kerr, Holt, Davidson, Swanson and Wright are all under threat after that "performance" yesterday. TW seemed absolutely raging at Tanser for some of his passes in the second half too, so will probably throw a huff and drop him.

is how I'd go. We aren't going to resolve the defensive issues by changing the shape. The first goal comes from a set piece which is just horrendous. Vihmann should help there but hes looked hopeless any time hes been on the park. Davidson is saved simply by the fact we need to be building relationships in the squad, every week we have different wingers in front of the full backs, and different combinations in the middle of the park. I'd be sticking with that eleven for the next next month or so and seeing how it goes, I don't think anyone not in there can complain theyve been left out.

Agree on the shape, its the best we can do with the squad. Yesterday it was distressing how vulnerable we were to high balls over the top and into the box, something that St Mirren defended very well and also a type of football were not especially set up to play ourselves, given that we don't have anyone in the team good enough at winning headers at centre back (except Vihmann, but that's all he can do and of course Gordon). 

Thinking about yesterday it was depressing that we aren't able to cope with basic route one balls which should be an absolute minimum for a premiership team. 

In that lineup I would drop Clark TBH. He needs some motivation and frankly he's not good enough right now.