Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[SJFCtheTeamForMe]

One glaring issue I see in Davidson's "not" preferred shape is the back three because of the players we have. The team is hindered in possession severely by 3 "Old fashioned" defenders in the back three. While not a total bomb scare most of our realistic back three options can't offer much going forward. 

The likes of Mitchell & Considine aren't capable of overlapping or providing any real attacking threat at all in possession. They're offering other qualities but attacking threat in possession isn't one of them. 

Teams sussed that weakness out last season at times and the same issues are happening this season. The opposition allow our back three to have the ball and we inevitably gift them the ball playing out. If we do manage to get higher up the park if we're forced wide around the half way line it often results in the likes of Mitchell just knocking it down the line because they're not capable of stepping out or playing and making another forward run.

Being able to play different ways like today removes many of these issues. If you're playing a 4-3-3 type formation you're not asking players to play roles they're not comfortable for a start.

It provides an extra man in midfield as well if you are forced to go longer. It also gives the team another player much more comfortable in possession to play through teams who can drop in (Millar style) and take the ball from Gordon without vacating the midfield and leaving the other central midfielder isolated like would happen in the 5-2-3 shape.

Didn't see too much of tonights game as decided to do something else instead of sitting in the house in a huff but I'm pleased Phillips seems to have done well. He was the best player on the park in Dingwall after the break and felt he was unlucky to be left out after that as well.

Edited January 21, 2023 by SJFCtheTeamForMe

[shermanator]

So Bair hasn't been good? He wasn't with Vancouver, scored a wonder goal on a hopeful shot and that was about it. I was surprised when he made the move to Scotland as I thought it was a jump up from where he was at. Probably should have stayed with HamKam he did well there and it would have been a good level for him.

[RandomGuy.]

9 hours ago, Zamora Fan said:

There’s a road he (and the club) could still go down that could see him become a good manager both for us and for himself in general. More tactical flexibility, less stubbornness, more ambition against poorer sides and someone at the club to say no to his recruitment suggestions. And maybe a more assertive assistant who could say things like “Graham Carey has been off it for months you moron” or “James Brown can’t play on the left” or “Liam Gordon could really use a break and our best player plays his position and is on the bench” would also help. 

Its been this way for a while though.

Every time you think a corners turned and its finally sunk in, he reverts back to what he wants to make work.

Ideally he accepts the back 4 is the best shape for this squad, uses the next week to make sure we have players to play it (sign another right back please, Brown is passable in a back 4 there but a quality one really pushes us on IMO) and we head into the huge Motherwell match with things looking up. But it feels like we'll run with this for a while, probably gain points to keep us safe, then something will happen (probably an injury to someone or one bad result) and we'll be back to the back 5. 

[Jamie_B]

It was no surprise to me that Brown looked ok last night given we played him in a position and with tactics that suit his game. Nothing went down his side while he was on the park.

If we can play this system with Phillips and MacPherson in the middle consistently for a while I’m sure we’ll get some results. There’s energy in that team and a bit of natural width, and it avoids the square pegs in round holes situation we’ve had so often this season.

Id prefer Mitchell over Gordon at the back and Spoony/Murphy over Carey, and probably have Clark over Hallberg against teams of our own level, but at least you’ve got the flexibility there to put players in positions that suit them.

[RandomGuy.]

15 minutes ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

If we can play this system with Phillips and MacPherson in the middle consistently for a while I’m sure we’ll get some results. There’s energy in that team and a bit of natural width, and it avoids the square pegs in round holes situation we’ve had so often this season.

Was great seeing those two receive in the middle and have options either side of them. Dont think Rangers expected our shape at all so we were doubling up on them out wide a lot of the time.

Guess the new issue is a lot of players now potentially become bench players. Youre probably looking at McGowan and Carey of the regulars who might struggle to find a place.

[Widge]

I think you could play McGowan at right back. He’s still got the energy to play midfield and he does occasionally bomb on. Ok not ideal, but he’d be fine with Wright in front of him. 

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, Widge said:

I think you could play McGowan at right back. He’s still got the energy to play midfield and he does occasionally bomb on. Ok not ideal, but he’d be fine with Wright in front of him. 

I worry if you do that with, say, Wotherspoon on the left, we'd end up playing almost exactly the same as a 3-5-2 with Wotherspoon left of the middle 3 and McGowan RCB.

To see a difference we need a right back who can attack IMO, i dont think McGowan is beating anyone off the dribble.

[Valentino Bolognese]

7 minutes ago, Widge said:

I think you could play McGowan at right back. He’s still got the energy to play midfield and he does occasionally bomb on. Ok not ideal, but he’d be fine with Wright in front of him. 

I didn't see all the game but was thinking this too. Brown's injury looked quite nasty and might keep him out - even if the eye's OK it might be a concussion lay-off?

Maybe that will switch attention away from a striker towards a RB.

[Widge]

15 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I worry if you do that with, say, Wotherspoon on the left, we'd end up playing almost exactly the same as a 3-5-2 with Wotherspoon left of the middle 3 and McGowan RCB.

To see a difference we need a right back who can attack IMO, i dont think McGowan is beating anyone off the dribble.

I don’t disagree with you on the regards; but I think it would be fine if you tell Wright to stay high. Alternatively you play Wright there and play someone ahead of him, albeit that’s probably too attacking. 
 

It’s almost too late to identify targets if we’re changing shape. You know we won’t have forward planned enough for that eventuality. 

[mizfit]

I see Jack Grimmer is out of contract in the summer.

[RandomGuy.]

51 minutes ago, Widge said:

It’s almost too late to identify targets if we’re changing shape. You know we won’t have forward planned enough for that eventuality. 

Yeah his targets seem to be to fit a back 5, Lewis Mayo would actually be a decent option as the RCB there i think.

Its not ideal to need to pivot to suddenly wanting players for a back 4.

Im against the amount of ageing players we have, but do think it would be worth asking about Stephen O'Donnell who seems like hes been half out the picture at Motherwell for a while now.

[capt_oats]

13 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Im against the amount of ageing players we have, but do think it would be worth asking about Stephen O'Donnell who seems like hes been half out the picture at Motherwell for a while now.

The SOD situation feels like it's something we could do with resolving.

He was our captain last season but wasn't a particularly good fit. He fell out with Alexander and had the captaincy taken off him in the summer. Coincidentally we then signed Paul McGinn - those dots aren't hard to join.

Since then, despite Alexander being binned, he's really just been used off the bench now and again and only got a run of starts when McGinn was injured or we were down a left back.

That was Max Johnston starting ahead of him at RB against Arbroath yesterday and Johnston's in the press today saying that Hammell's promised him game time having been recalled from Cove (he's OOC in the summer so I'd guess we're trying to make an effort to prove he's valued by the club).

[RandomGuy.]

34 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

The SOD situation feels like it's something we could do with resolving.

He was our captain last season but wasn't a particularly good fit. He fell out with Alexander and had the captaincy taken off him in the summer. Coincidentally we then signed Paul McGinn - those dots aren't hard to join.

Since then, despite Alexander being binned, he's really just been used off the bench now and again and only got a run of starts when McGinn was injured or we were down a left back.

That was Max Johnston starting ahead of him at RB against Arbroath yesterday and Johnston's in the press today saying that Hammell's promised him game time having been recalled from Cove (he's OOC in the summer so I'd guess we're trying to make an effort to prove he's valued by the club).

Was it not just meant to be a short term deal?

Do worry him going from Scotland International to Motherwell reserve so quickly means hes chucked it.

[capt_oats]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

Was it not just meant to be a short term deal?

Do worry him going from Scotland International to Motherwell reserve so quickly means hes chucked it.

Originally, aye.

He signed a 6 month deal in the Covid season to cover injuries. It seemed like the move south he had lined up after he left Killie fell through and he's local so it suited everyone given the circumstances.

All in he's signed 3 contracts with us. Last one was a 2 year deal.

[PauloPerth]

4 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Its been this way for a while though.

Every time you think a corners turned and its finally sunk in, he reverts back to what he wants to make work.

Ideally he accepts the back 4 is the best shape for this squad, uses the next week to make sure we have players to play it (sign another right back please, Brown is passable in a back 4 there but a quality one really pushes us on IMO) and we head into the huge Motherwell match with things looking up. But it feels like we'll run with this for a while, probably gain points to keep us safe, then something will happen (probably an injury to someone or one bad result) and we'll be back to the back 5. 

Agree with your first point, he has to move away from that default mindset. If we play a poor game with 4 at the back then it doesn’t mean we give up on it and revert back.

Not so much your second point in bold, we’ve played some decent games with 3/5 at the back as well this season.

Its about having a more flexible approach, based on what is best against  the opposition.  Makes us far less predictable for opposition managers to set up against us as well. One advantage of having a big squad is that we should be able to play in different ways.

For example, if we start with 5 at the back against Celtic it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world.  

 

[Costanza]

Cammy Kerr will play right back when he signs. 

[nelsjfc]

So, what were you all doing a year ago?

[The Saintee]

20 minutes ago, nelsjfc said:

So, what were you all doing a year ago?

Feeling more certain than ever that I wanted Cal sacked.

 

Not much has changed.

He absolutely loves losing football matches.

[PSJ.84]

28 minutes ago, nelsjfc said:

So, what were you all doing a year ago?

Doesn’t matter

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, PauloPerth said:

Agree with your first point, he has to move away from that default mindset. If we play a poor game with 4 at the back then it doesn’t mean we give up on it and revert back.

Not so much your second point in bold, we’ve played some decent games with 3/5 at the back as well this season.

Its about having a more flexible approach, based on what is best against  the opposition.  Makes us far less predictable for opposition managers to set up against us as well. One advantage of having a big squad is that we should be able to play in different ways.

For example, if we start with 5 at the back against Celtic it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world.  

 

Oh yeah i fully agree, was just meaning i think that most of this squad works well if youve two people attacking each flank, 3 in the middle, and 2 up front, and that lends itself to a back 4.

Different games need different approaches, im not sure how often we've seen him adjust to different threats.