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Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread


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A lot of clamour for Eetu at the minute but folk need to remember he’s still only 22, in a new country and spent a good few weeks locked up in a hotel room. Although the rumours I’m seeing a slightly concerning, there’s still plenty of time this season. 

Now I’ve said that I fully expect him to be away and never to be seen again come January. 

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Have patience. He only signed 6 weeks ago.

Not even a year older than Cammy Ballantyne, moving to a new country and league for the first time. Learning a new system and style. Not sure it's fair to be expecting him to come straight in and adapt to our game. FWIW a stats company put this up, showing the difference in style between these leagues and English League One. Would guess it wouldn't be far away from the difference to us too.

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Melamed signed on the 5th of October and didn't play a league game until 24th November, and he was older and more experienced, plus he got the benefit of the Betfred Groups being later last season to help him get minutes.

Hmm, I'm not sure I necessarily buy the argument about needing that long to get up to speed in a new country and style of play. The basics of the game don't change and by that logic, every foreign play all teams buy would take that amount of time. Morelos at Rangers came from the same league at the same age roughly and was thrown in and hit the ground running.

On Melamed, while it all came good in the end, I wonder if he might have hung around for this season if he hadn't had the big wait at the start which would have unsettled him.

I doubt doubt for a second Davidson knows what he is doing, but it is frustrating when we can all see goals are a problem, yet we have a young striker sitting on the bench getting zero game time.

I'll also pass in the whole stats comparison too. Don't buy the whole xg thing etc. It can tell the user anything they want really. 

Edited by Theyellowbox
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26 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Hmm, I'm not sure I necessarily buy the argument about needing that long to get up to speed in a new country and style of play. The basics of the game don't change and by that logic, every foreign play all teams buy would take that amount of time. Morelos at Rangers came from the same league at the same age roughly and was thrown in and hit the ground running.

Morelos had already moved countries before he joined Rangers. He's Colombian...

Is it even fair to compare Vertainen to arguably the best striker in the league anyway? Plus Morelos being a physical, poaching, centre forward is a better fit for our league than a space finder who likes to run at folk from space in the final third.

Vertainen is coming into a league where the ball will be played over his head far more than usual, he'll get less time on the ball, and he'll have to do more work off the ball. He'll have to learn our system, how every players works with each other, and then learn his team mates strengths/weaknesses. He has to all this while adapting to a new culture/country for the first ever time. At the age of 22. With folk writing him off after 6 weeks.

26 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

I'll also pass in the whole stats comparison too. Don't buy the whole xg thing etc. It can tell the user anything they want really. 

It's nothing to do with xG. It literally just looks at things like "passes per minute/pressures per minute" over the league and compares them. There's no user interference at all.

Edited by RandomGuy.
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39 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Morelos had already moved countries before he joined Rangers. He's Colombian...

Is it even fair to compare Vertainen to arguably the best striker in the league anyway? Plus Morelos being a physical, poaching, centre forward is a better fit for our league than a space finder who likes to run at folk from space in the final third.

Vertainen is coming into a league where the ball will be played over his head far more than usual, he'll get less time on the ball, and he'll have to do more work off the ball. He'll have to learn our system, how every players works with each other, and then learn his team mates strengths/weaknesses. He has to all this while adapting to a new culture/country for the first ever time. At the age of 22. With folk writing him off after 6 weeks.

It's nothing to do with xG. It literally just looks at things like "passes per minute/pressures per minute" over the league and compares them. There's no user interference at all.

Yeah, but that's my point re Morelos. He switched 2 countries by that age and I'd argue the shift from Colombia to Finland is a bigger step than Finland to Scotland. I'm not comparing abilities of styles, more that it's the same move in countries. No one is writing him off as no one has really seen him play. If he was 17 and could speak no English and came from a wildly different climate, then I could see a big culture shock, but nothing much about Scotland should be massively different to Finland. I appreciate Davidson may not think he is quite ready, but does that point to a recruitment issue? If we cannot sign a player without a 2 month bedding in period, then we are in trouble. There is the guy at Utd too that has come from the same league and playing regularly, so the move from the league cannot be an argument. 

On the stats, your sort of making my point for me as to whether they add meaningful value. You could have a player or a team in the league that is wildly different from the rest, but that does not tell in those stats. The Morelos vs E2 differing styles of play despite coming from the same league back that up.

Likewise, you could look at some leagues and see that there is greater or less passing than another for example, but that ignores that one may be played on AstroTurf mainly which will encourage one style of play and onother on muddy wet pitches which may encourage another. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Yeah, but that's my point re Morelos. He switched 2 countries by that age and I'd argue the shift from Colombia to Finland is a bigger step than Finland to Scotland. I'm not comparing abilities of styles, more that it's the same move in countries. No one is writing him off as no one has really seen him play.

Aye but still style can be a reason you struggle to adapt. Morelos playing off the last man and getting stuck into things is something that every league has, he's slowly adapted his all round play since joining but he felt like a wrecking ball to start with. Vertainen seems to be more used to drifting into pockets of space that appear in build ups etc., spaces which don't appear as often over here because of the different style of league.

7 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

I appreciate Davidson may not think he is quite ready, but does that point to a recruitment issue? If we cannot sign a player without a 2 month bedding in period, then we are in trouble. There is the guy at Utd too that has come from the same league and playing regularly, so the move from the league cannot be an argument. 

He's the only player signed this Summer who's needed a bedding in issue. Maybe the thought it was worth the risk as he got a 2yr deal and once he's settled he'll be a better investment than any player who would've settled quicker. Short term pain for long term gain.

Niskanen had already moved to Germany, where he struggled to adapt and was barely playing for Ingolstadt... again though, he's a direct winger who's style is a better direct fit to our game, he wouldn't need as long to adapt.

10 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

On the stats, your sort of making my point for me as to whether they add meaningful value. You could have a player or a team in the league that is wildly different from the rest, but that does not tell in those stats.

Well yeah, you take the league as a whole to avoid the outliers, as they're weeded out by the average. It's a general tool to help gauge how players might adapt across countries and with Vertainen "struggling" I felt it might be interesting for folk to see. The company who put it out have recently started working with Motherwell and are heavily involved in recruitment at clubs over the UK with the help of that system, its not just some dweeb making something up.

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Surely Vertainen isn’t that far off it that he can’t get 5 minutes at Dens when we’re 2-0 up or some game time when we’re getting horsed at home to livi. What’s the point in him even being on the bench if that’s the case? Middleton seems to be the go to sub and he’s been atrocious this season, he’s offered next to nothing and looks lost when he comes on. We really do have a lack of options upfront not that I think he should’ve been kept but I’m very surprised Hendry was allowed to leave since CD is refusing to play vertainen. 
 

on this new midfielder it would’ve made sense 3/4 weeks ago when we had a mini crisis but now that Muzz, Bryson and McPherson are back and Crawford only out for a few weeks where is he playing? 

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10 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

He has to all this while adapting to a new culture/country for the first ever time. At the age of 22. With folk writing him off after 6 weeks.

I haven't seen anyone write him off, only seen people bemoan CD's apparent writing off of him. 

That said, I haven't seen the rumours. Please do share them, via pm if that's somehow required... 

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2 hours ago, FrankChickens1 said:

I haven't seen anyone write him off, only seen people bemoan CD's apparent writing off of him. 

That said, I haven't seen the rumours. Please do share them, via pm if that's somehow required... 

There's been folk making up rumours that the coaches are calling him shite in training, and it's somehow gaining traction. Folk not even subtle about suggesting his lack of game time means he's shite too. He's being given time to adapt without being thrown in by a manager who needs to know you can play his system before he'll chuck you in.

Dendoncker and Muller both played this shape at clubs before us. 

I'm fairly sure it's the same folk who criticised me for writing off Comrie and Thomson in their final seasons, which is ironic considering Vertainen is the same age as those two when they left and has far more obstacles to overcome.

7 hours ago, glenrothes 1884 saint said:

The Arabs Finish guy seems to have adapted ok, too many sources saying he’s struggling for it not to have some credibility I’m afraid 

Not all players are the same. I'll tell you for a fact that before both players had even played a game for either club, that those at Saints would tell you Niskanen would adapt quicker to Scottish football than Vertainen because of their style of play.

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8 hours ago, Dick Van Dyke said:

Surely Vertainen isn’t that far off it that he can’t get 5 minutes at Dens when we’re 2-0 up or some game time when we’re getting horsed at home to livi. What’s the point in him even being on the bench if that’s the case? Middleton seems to be the go to sub and he’s been atrocious this season, he’s offered next to nothing and looks lost when he comes on. We really do have a lack of options upfront not that I think he should’ve been kept but I’m very surprised Hendry was allowed to leave since CD is refusing to play vertainen. 
 

on this new midfielder it would’ve made sense 3/4 weeks ago when we had a mini crisis but now that Muzz, Bryson and McPherson are back and Crawford only out for a few weeks where is he playing? 

I think this is pretty much where I am coming from too. We can talk about systems and adapting to the style if play etc, but when a game is done andcwe could give him 5-10 mins, then there is no harm. Likewise, when we were 3-0 down to Livi and the game was gone, we could have given him a run out to get some game time.

I'd be 99% sure he would rather play than be protected and given time to adjust. I'm sure Davidson knows what he is doing with him, but I can imagine the guy getting increasingly fed up. There is a balance between allowing him time to adapt and completely destroying his confidence.

Anyway, let's hope he gets on the pitch tomorrow and scores a winner and we can all shut up. 

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I don’t understand how people don’t see the other side of the “why not just give him time when we’re losing even if he’s not ready?” argument. Say he’s given 20 minutes when the game is already dead against Livi for the sake of it even tho CD doesn’t think he’s quite up to speed with system/style of play yet - and he’s dreadful. Doesn’t know where to go in the system, gets brushed off the ball by Livi’s high press, maybe even gives the ball away from holding it too long and Livi score a 4th as a result. We all know some dickhead fans angry at the result would probably jeer him in that case - it would be a much more pointless exercise than CD explaining to him that he doesn’t think he’s quite there yet etc etc. And I think would wreck his confidence more than the current situation.

I’d ask fans to remember Danny Swanson’s debut 45 minutes v Queen of the South away when he wasn’t up to speed yet, was shite, and got booed (something I’m still angry about to this day) and I think was one of those that irate Saints fans chucked a snowball at. Took him a while to recover from that in his first season before eventually coming good in the last few games. Vertainen is here two years, plenty time to see what he can do.

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11 minutes ago, PSJ.84 said:

Also don’t get the argument about Saturday past when we’d already made 2 subs and had to get both O’Halloran and Efe off after their head clash. Fully trust the manager on this one 

I'll agree with this. Given the amount of time Eetu was out warming up at the start of the second half, I suspect he was going to be given a chance. But with dumb and dumber deciding to act like a pair of clowns, that decision was taken away from Davidson. 

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2 hours ago, Zamora Fan said:

I don’t understand how people don’t see the other side of the “why not just give him time when we’re losing even if he’s not ready?” argument. Say he’s given 20 minutes when the game is already dead against Livi for the sake of it even tho CD doesn’t think he’s quite up to speed with system/style of play yet - and he’s dreadful. Doesn’t know where to go in the system, gets brushed off the ball by Livi’s high press, maybe even gives the ball away from holding it too long and Livi score a 4th as a result. We all know some dickhead fans angry at the result would probably jeer him in that case - it would be a much more pointless exercise than CD explaining to him that he doesn’t think he’s quite there yet etc etc. And I think would wreck his confidence more than the current situation.

I’d ask fans to remember Danny Swanson’s debut 45 minutes v Queen of the South away when he wasn’t up to speed yet, was shite, and got booed (something I’m still angry about to this day) and I think was one of those that irate Saints fans chucked a snowball at. Took him a while to recover from that in his first season before eventually coming good in the last few games. Vertainen is here two years, plenty time to see what he can do.

A good point, but the counter could be that he comes on and scores. I think the frustration is we signed a guy who seems to have something different, but despite us not doing well up front, we don't get to see him. 

On the Swanson booing at QOS part of the ire for some saints fans was it appearing as if he couldn't be bothered. In hindsight he was unfit and as you make the good point was counterproductive. Think he maybe started that game though?

1 hour ago, PSJ.84 said:

Also don’t get the argument about Saturday past when we’d already made 2 subs and had to get both O’Halloran and Efe off after their head clash. Fully trust the manager on this one 

I think we could still make another sub as one of those would go down as a concussion sub, so you can make an extra change..... I think. 

Edited by Theyellowbox
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