Mr Positive, sometimes. Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, capt_oats said: To put this into context Alan Burrows was on the MFC Podcast the other week explaining that Motherwell opened negotiations with Allan Campbell about a new contract 20 months ago and were still putting offers on the table this summer. Apparently the final contract we put to him would have been "up there as one of the best that the club has made in the past 20 years or so" (clearly we had to have an offer there to protect our development compensation but still....). Strung along good and proper. I think the experience is similar for all clubs at our level unfortunately. Although while I want good players to stay forever I accept they want to progress their career and they should do so. Especially if it's a great move! Just frustrating the wasted effort and time discussing and making those various offers that it would seem was little intention of taking (probably used to increase the offer elsewhere as well) but as you say yeah get the offer on the table, if they want to stay great if not making sure you get the development fee. That's the difference between Well' and Saints. Saints tend not to give much away publicly and tend not to explain so openly the situation like Burrows did with Campbell. We tend to get snippets in local press that I've always presumed the club have given them so fans are not completely in the dark. Kerr is one who'll be 25 in Feb so presume we'd also not get development fee if he left next summer at the end of his contract actually . Edited July 2, 2021 by Mr Positive, sometimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 Reece Devine loan now confirmed by the club. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) The new and improved St Johnstone squad list. I've gone back through articles on the Saints website and I've picked out all the youngsters I could find missing from the previous iterations of the list. I'm not sure if this is better or not, but I've tried to split it down via position, with the youth players at the bottom, so Kucheriavyi (who I think is right back!) is listed before the 1st team cbs. I make it 31 full time players in the squad, lots of them wont see much or any football for us this season and one of whom is already out on loan. I think the biggest hole is the number 10/wide players. We're currently 2 down from what we finished last season with. Maybe direct replacements for those 2 and replacements for the players who look likely to leave and that'll be our lot? Another striker would be nice but is probably excessive if Davidson thinks Hendry can contribute. Goalkeepers Zander Clark - 2022 Elliot Parish - 2022 Ross Sinclair - 2024 Jack Wills - 2022 Craig Hepburn - 2023 Defenders Shaun Rooney - 2022 James Brown - 2023 Max Kucheriavyi - 2024 Jason Kerr - 2022 Liam Gordon - 2022 Jamie McCart - 2022 Hayden Muller - 2022 - on loan from Millwall Sam Denham - 2022 Liam Parker - 2022 Callum Booth - 2022 Reece Devine - 2022 - on loan from Manchester United Midfielders/wingers Murray Davidson - 2022 Ali McCann - 2023 Craig Bryson - 2022 Charlie Gilmour -2023 Liam Craig - 2022 Cammy Ballantyne - 2022 (?) Alex Ferguson - 2023 - on loan at Edinburgh City Bailey Pert - 2023 Spencer Moreland - 2022 David Wotherspoon - 2023 Michael O’Halloran- 2023 Jordan Northcott - 2022 Attackers Stevie May - 2023 Chris Kane - 2023 Callum Hendry - 2022 Taylor Steven - 2022 Edited July 2, 2021 by Kyle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrothes 1884 saint Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Max is a midfielder I'm sure 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, glenrothes 1884 saint said: Max is a midfielder I'm sure Honestly I've no idea what he is. The Courier list him as a defender, Edinburgh City's website has him as a forward, you're saying midfielder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Positive, sometimes. Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Kyle said: The new and improved St Johnstone squad list. I've gone back through articles on the Saints website and I've picked out all the youngsters I could find missing from the previous iterations of the list. I'm not sure if this is better or not, but I've tried to split it down via position, with the youth players at the bottom, so Kucheriavyi (who I think is right back!) is listed before the 1st team cbs. I make it 31 full time players in the squad, lots of them wont see much or any football for us this season and one of whom is already out on loan. I think the biggest hole is the number 10/wide players. We're currently 2 down from what we finished last season with. Maybe direct replacements for those 2 and replacements for the players who look likely to leave and that'll be our lot? Another striker would be nice but is probably excessive if Davidson thinks Hendry can contribute. Goalkeepers Zander Clark - 2022 Elliot Parish - 2022 Ross Sinclair - 2024 Jack Wills - 2022 Craig Hepburn - 2023 Defenders Shaun Rooney - 2022 James Brown - 2023 Max Kucheriavyi - 2024 Jason Kerr - 2022 Liam Gordon - 2022 Jamie McCart - 2022 Hayden Muller - 2022 - on loan from Millwall Sam Denham - 2022 Liam Parker - 2022 Callum Booth - 2022 Reece Devine - 2022 - on loan from Manchester United Midfielders/wingers Murray Davidson - 2022 Ali McCann - 2023 Craig Bryson - 2022 Charlie Gilmour -2023 Liam Craig - 2022 Cammy Ballantyne - 2022 (?) Alex Ferguson - 2023 - on loan at Edinburgh City Bailey Pert - 2023 Spencer Moreland - 2022 David Wotherspoon - 2023 Michael O’Halloran- 2023 Jordan Northcott - 2022 Attackers Stevie May - 2023 Chris Kane - 2023 Callum Hendry - 2022 Taylor Steven - 2022 We really do need a few of those young lads to break through. Otherwise it could result in a major overhaul next summer as there's a few there that'll potentially move on due to age on top of those looking to further their career. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Saintee Posted July 2, 2021 Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just stick Kucheriayvi in each section. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Eric Nicolson saying Hibs will come back in for Kerr if/when they sell Porteous, and he expects the club to "seriously consider" a bid of £300k for McCart. This is going to be a really long Summer, isn't it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizfit Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 Games a bogey if we’re still accepting offers that little for our players. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radford Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 How many players have Saints sold for over £300,000? Ally McCoist would be the first? John Inglis, Paul Wright, Billy Dodds, Danny Griffin, Callum Davidson, Michael O'Halloran, Stevie May. Any others? Disappointing as the fees maybe are, Saints haven't sold a lot of players for that sort of money. If you only give a guy a two-year contract on a Bosman and sell him after a year for £300,000, there is a case that it's good business, especially if you can insert future clauses. We are suffering here from Tommy Wright signing shite like McMillan and Scougall on big wages, or otherwise the board might have sanctioned three years for Rooney and McCart and we aren't in this situation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leith Green Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 50 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Eric Nicolson saying Hibs will come back in for Kerr if/when they sell Porteous, and he expects the club to "seriously consider" a bid of £300k for McCart. This is going to be a really long Summer, isn't it? A bit laughable if we get enough money from Porteous sale to bid for Kerr tbh. However, on the wider issue of Kerr and Mccart............I did say yesterday that we had made opening bids and expect them to increase. Whether that goes anywhere is anyones guess. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Leith Green said: A bit laughable if we get enough money from Porteous sale to bid for Kerr tbh. Porteous is younger, higher profile, and on a longer deal. You'll easily get comfortably more for him than the bids we'll get for Kerr. I'm still not convinced any of our defenders will want to remain in this country tbh, but I'm mostly wrong about everything so we all know that all 3 will move to Scottish clubs now Can't understand why we'd be taking so little for any of them, now is the perfect time for us to take a hard line and try and force a new tide mark for transfers out the club. Would be interesting to hear the clubs thoughts on the fees, as there will undoubtedly be logic in there one way or another, but obviously don't expect they'll actually do that. Edited July 3, 2021 by RandomGuy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Radford said: How many players have Saints sold for over £300,000? Ally McCoist would be the first? John Inglis, Paul Wright, Billy Dodds, Danny Griffin, Callum Davidson, Michael O'Halloran, Stevie May. Any others? Disappointing as the fees maybe are, Saints haven't sold a lot of players for that sort of money. If you only give a guy a two-year contract on a Bosman and sell him after a year for £300,000, there is a case that it's good business, especially if you can insert future clauses. We are suffering here from Tommy Wright signing shite like McMillan and Scougall on big wages, or otherwise the board might have sanctioned three years for Rooney and McCart and we aren't in this situation. Not to come along all "...but Motherwell" (actually that's exactly what I'm doing), we found ourselves in a similar sort of position through the Dempster era and pretty much all our best players were walking away for free because we were signing them on 1 & 2 year deals (with the slight caveat that historically we've sold plenty of players for decent money although few were sold for £1m+). The upshot of that has been from a board/club level we've gone out our way to actively "platform" players and build up the sort of money we're recouping. Basically the aim is to maximise our return from player trading. It's reductive but, forgetting about £500k from Leeds for Lee Erwin, if you take Marvin Johnson as the first sale under the new model we got roughly £500k (before the sell on bumped his total income up to closer to £1m), since then through development fees and transfers the money we're bringing in has gradually increased culminating with the £3.25m for Turnbull and the whole headline number of over £6m brought in during Robinson's tenure of just shy of 4 years. I suppose it's a bit weird thinking about it that our sales are something that are kind of celebrates as a W by the club but I guess it kind of fits in to the culture of the strategy we have. Having said that, beyond Academy products like Campbell (4 years) and Scott (3.5 years) we've never really dished out lengthy contracts to new signings either (Moult and Carson were the last players to get 3 year deals prior to this summer). There seems to have been a shift though since of our 4 signings so far 2 have been 3 year deals. From the outside looking in Saints have never came across as a side who have actively tried to "sell" their players (I may be miles out on that, but it's how it looks...so sue me). Which has it's upside I guess in so much as it's how I imagine TW was able to retain such a sold core over the best part of a decade compared to a side like us who have been going through full rebuilds every couple of years. I'd imagine that the knock on is partly a reason why clubs seem to think they can just come along and low ball with offers. If, for example, Murray Davidson had been a Motherwell player in recent times we'd have been trying to shift him on for £500k-£750k to some lower Championship/upper League 1 outfit at the first opportunity. Instead you've got a Saints player with almost 400 games for the club. Equally it's a very different position dealing with younger player who may have ambitions to "progress their career" and feel they have a higher ceiling than the cinch Scottish Premiership (combined with the advice they may be getting from their agent) compared to a more seasoned pro who may just be happy enough at that level. Dealing with the differences in cultures and understanding how to maximise value is probably an extremely "Modern Football" thing. I was having a wee laugh at the WAP types who didn't seem to get why just slapping an extension in front of a player doesn't mean they'll sign it. Big up to the boy who wanted Saints to use all the Government Loan money on contract extensions though. Some galaxy brain thinking right there. Edited July 3, 2021 by capt_oats 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 There's a middle ground between Saints approach of never hyping up players then accepting a meal deal from the school van, and Motherwell making 4hr long promotional videos about their 9th choice goalkeeper and punting him for #Profit, then finding they're changing their squad every 2 years and can never build momentum, IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: There's a middle ground between Saints approach of never hyping up players then accepting a meal deal from the school van, and Motherwell making 4hr long promotional videos about their 9th choice goalkeeper and punting him for #Profit, then finding they're changing their squad every 2 years and can never build momentum, IMO. Aye, to be clear, that long winded post isn't saying "look at us doing things the right way" or that we're great and wise. I mean, we were literally bottom of the league when Alexander took over. There's definitely been a shift in our approach from the Dempster era though and I'm guessing that the club/board may have re-evaluated things again following last season. Edited July 3, 2021 by capt_oats 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, capt_oats said: Aye, to be clear, that long winded post isn't saying "look at us doing things the right way". I mean, we were literally bottom of the league when Alexander took over. There's definitely been a shift in our approach from the Dempster era though and I'm guessing that the club/board may have re-evaluated things again following last season. Yeah Motherwell have done well to "maximise" the money they get for players, but even then players still leave at the end of contracts despite being key players. It's a, sadly, inevitable part of life for clubs at this life so its always a touch bemusing that you get folk asking "did the club EVEN OFFER them deals!!!???!!!" whenever a player is due to leave at the end of their deal. I guess my hope is McCann goes for £2m+ and that's then a standard set for talented players under contract with us. That's the key deal this Summer IMO. McCart/Kerr/Rooney are all just judgement calls on whether it's worth taking money now, or if keeping them will earn us more over the course of a season. Winning one tie in Europe earns us millions though, so I know where I sit on that one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: Yeah Motherwell have done well to "maximise" the money they get for players, but even then players still leave at the end of contracts despite being key players. It's a, sadly, inevitable part of life for clubs at this life so its always a touch bemusing that you get folk asking "did the club EVEN OFFER them deals!!!???!!!" whenever a player is due to leave at the end of their deal. I guess my hope is McCann goes for £2m+ and that's then a standard set for talented players under contract with us. That's the key deal this Summer IMO. McCart/Kerr/Rooney are all just judgement calls on whether it's worth taking money now, or if keeping them will earn us more over the course of a season. Winning one tie in Europe earns us millions though, so I know where I sit on that one. Definitely, speaking specifically to Motherwell's strategy, if your sales pitch to a player when you sign them is that you'll give them a platform to "progress their career" you can't really complain when at the end of their contract they choose to "progress their career" and move to another club who will pay them more money. Agree with you about McCann - getting value for an asset pretty much sets the tone for the narrative going forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloPerth Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 The club can’t really win here. You sign players on good contracts like Scougall and McMillan for 3 years and it doesn’t work out so you’re stuck with them on a good wage or have to pay them off and lose money. So you learn your lesson and sign McCart and Rooney etc on 2 year deals and folk complain they should have been longer deals. Every new signing is a gamble, so 2 years is probably about right in most cases. The trick is to identify you’ve picked someone with sell-on potential early and get them extended. Up until the Hibs 3-0 semi, who would have predicted Rooney being the success he has been? Don’t want him to leave, but I’d be amazed if the club rejected an offer of £300k for him. The one I’m struggling to get my head round is in what universe Ryan Porteous is worth more than Jason Kerr. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 So who will be missing out on atleast 30 games this season? A group of St Johnstone fans have been banned from more than 30 upcoming matches after being accused of going on the rampage after the club secured a cup double. The supporters have been accused of striking a female security officer with a flare as they allegedly ran amok when the team won the Scottish Cup in May. At Perth Sheriff Court, they were placed on bail with a special condition not to attend any St Johnstone match before they appear for trial in February next year 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Positive, sometimes. Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bennett said: So who will be missing out on atleast 30 games this season? A group of St Johnstone fans have been banned from more than 30 upcoming matches after being accused of going on the rampage after the club secured a cup double. The supporters have been accused of striking a female security officer with a flare as they allegedly ran amok when the team won the Scottish Cup in May. At Perth Sheriff Court, they were placed on bail with a special condition not to attend any St Johnstone match before they appear for trial in February next year Never even heard about it till now to be honest. Mr N B maybe? Edited July 3, 2021 by Mr Positive, sometimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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