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Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread


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I've spent my night creating a form of rating system to see if I can find a way to easily compare players in our squad across positions.

The one thing that stood out the most was how absolutely fucking tragic it all was.

Spoiler

It was based solely on league games.

FWIW...

- Both keepers been awful, Parish the better of the two but Clark not played enough yet.

- McCart the best CB, but only because Kerr has missed a lot of chances in the opposition box. Gordon the worst of the three due to his distribution. 

- McNamara slightly over rated by fans, closer to Tanser than the CBs. Poor shooting and passing the reason, Tansers crosses more dangerous.

- Craig comes out really well, based on his goal and defensive work. Wotherspoon and McCann also in the top 3, can't remember the order from memory. If you're choosing between Spoony and Conway its not even a choice, Spoony comfortably better, but Conway improving weekly.

- Hendrys been the worst player in the squad. Close to a negative score if it wasn't for his defensive work. MOH not as bad as he seems, best player in terms of finishing chances. May the best striker all round.

Was just an experiment tbh, and not scientific. Wouldn't read much into it but type of thing I find interesting.

 

Edited by RandomGuy.
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Interesting stuff RG - what it probably shows is small sample size over anything else. 

There was some Twitter chat about Hendry yesterday about his lack of goals this season - I actually think he’s been very unfortunate. He’s continued to get into good positions and, to be fair, has fluffed a few chances - particularly headers from the centre of the box. But he’s also been very unlucky - good goal disallowed wrongly against Hibs, a couple of times he’s had good finishes really well saved by goalkeepers (at Ibrox, one at home at the north stand end - the opponents I can’t remember) and most irritatingly his shot at Livingston that beat the keeper and was flying into the net until Jason Holt appeared out of nowhere to header it away.  His finishing with his feet has been fine, he’s been taking up reasonable positions for crosses - he just needs to start getting more headers in target and the goals will come!

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I’d bet good money that if he wasn’t crocked (again) John Souttar would have been in the squad. That’s despite him having spent the last two years alternately being injured or being part of the worst defence in the Premiership over that period.
If Saints pick up a bit of form before the next set of fixtures, and if Scotland remain in a similar position injury/personnel wise Kerr should certainly be right up there in contention. I’m not sure I’d have the entire Hibs back line or Considine - and certainly not Halkett - ahead of Kerr in the Saints side anyway...

All of the players being linked with a called up (or called up) were left-sided because we needed balance on that side of our back three with Tierney, McKenna (and subsequently Cooper and Findlay) all out injured. Kerr was never going to get that shout with Gallagher, McTominay and Porteous already in the squad to play on his side.
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4 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


All of the players being linked with a called up (or called up) were left-sided because we needed balance on that side of our back three with Tierney, McKenna (and subsequently Cooper and Findlay) all out injured. Kerr was never going to get that shout with Gallagher, McTominay and Porteous already in the squad to play on his side.

I've never really bought the idea that you *need* a left sided centre back - though maybe it is more pressing if you want to play a three. I'd like to think Kerr can compete with Gallagher and Porteous in terms of ability anyway. Whatever they did in these three games certainly worked anyway!

I don't think we can really complain too much given our league position, it could become interesting over the next few weeks though depending on what happens...

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40 minutes ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

Interesting stuff RG - what it probably shows is small sample size over anything else. 

Aye, meant to wait until players have played 800+ mins.

Nothing serious to take from it, just trying to figure out a way to try and find a POTY through numbers, without it being weighted towards attackers.

Just now its Kerr by overall score, and I think Wotherspoon if you do it minutes played.

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8 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Aye, meant to wait until players have played 800+ mins.

Nothing serious to take from it, just trying to figure out a way to try and find a POTY through numbers, without it being weighted towards attackers.

Just now its Kerr by overall score, and I think Wotherspoon if you do it minutes played.

That's the two I'd pick so far anyway. Wotherspoon has added a level of consistency over the last year that he's never had before. Kerr is just a great all round player. The fact that he's being dragged down in your stats because of his *attacking* attributes tells you a lot about him. Just in terms of the eye test, it always seems like we rarely lose goals through him, they generally come via one of the other defenders!

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28 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


All of the players being linked with a called up (or called up) were left-sided because we needed balance on that side of our back three with Tierney, McKenna (and subsequently Cooper and Findlay) all out injured. Kerr was never going to get that shout with Gallagher, McTominay and Porteous already in the squad to play on his side.

Its been mentioned by someone, but the RCB in Clarkes system (McTominay) is tasked with being the one who steps forward in attack the most.

Same as Kerr for us. 

Kerr is the best non-OF attacking CB in the league, in terms of build up play, and also an above average defender. Porteous is more of a defender. To Saints fans, I reckon Kerr just seems like a better fit being ignored due to who he plays for.

Edited by RandomGuy.
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42 minutes ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

The fact that he's being dragged down in your stats because of his *attacking* attributes tells you a lot about him. 

Aye, this is something I'm too busy to properly figure out just now.

Hendry is also punished for losing a lot of headers, while MOH sits above him while not challenging for any, despite both playing as a CF. Not sure that's fair.

Trying to work out a way to score players for the percentage of successful "actions" like that, rather than just rewarded them for successfull/taking points for unsuccessful. 

Edited by RandomGuy.
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Porteous should currently be the furthest away from being an international centre back out the lot.

Hes a good Premiership centre back, physical and loves a challenge, and a bit of a leader for Hibs.  He's great for the Hibs fans who want him to smash an OF star then laugh in their face, that's always going to be a crowd pleaser.

But he's far too rash to be an international centre back. He gives away loads of fouls in dangerous areas by over-committing, and sly international strikers will buy free kicks and penalties off him all day long.  At that level, positioning and an ability to stay on your feet are even more important.

I'm not saying Porteous will never be international level; as he matures he might improve this aspect of his game.

In Jason Kerr's first season or so he liked getting really tight and committing to challenges on strikers with their back to goal when he wasn't likely to win it, and conceded a few free kicks through it. But now his starting position and reading of the game are generally really good, he still has the physical side when needed, plus he's probably the best in possession out of any of those mentioned for Scotland, with the obvious exception of McTominay if he's now classed as a centre back.

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 https://www.facebook.com/106720949379726/posts/3674694082582377/

 

 

Saints never miss an opportunity for income.

 

 

The current Scotland set up should give a bit of hope to our centre half given they play in the same formation.

 

If Kerr keeps up his form I've no doubt he'll be in the running. As others have said, he's playing a very similar role to McTominay

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, nelsjfc said:

 The current Scotland set up should give a bit of hope to our centre half given they play in the same formation.

If Kerr keeps up his form I've no doubt he'll be in the running. As others have said, he's playing a very similar role to McTominay

On the face of it, I'd imagine we have a better chance of getting players called up under Clarke than the likes of Strachan or McLeish. A quick look suggests M Davidson was called up by Levein and Stark.

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14 hours ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

That's the two I'd pick so far anyway. 

Full "RG Power Ranking" below, excluding those who have played less than 3 "per90s". 

Spoiler

Overall score

  1. Kerr
  2. McCart
  3. McCann
  4. Gordon
  5. Craig
  6. Wotherspoon
  7. McNamara
  8. Tanser
  9. Conway
  10. Parish
  11. MOH
  12. May
  13. Hendry

Per90 score

  1. Craig
  2. Wotherspoon
  3. McCart
  4. Kerr
  5. McCann
  6. Gordon
  7. Conway
  8. Tanser
  9. McNamara
  10. MOH
  11. May
  12. Parish
  13. Hendry

Figures love Craig, who does a lot of successful things (completing passes, winning duels, scoring goals, getting shots on target) despite playing less minutes than others.

I'm just spitballing here and its easier to write it all down here than anywhere else, as I'm liable to accidentally delete files on Excel, so just ignore all this as its just jabber to myself to see how it looks when everyone is organised, unless you enjoy random lists. Think I've maybe found a fair way to balance it all.

Spoiler

Attempt #851 at fairness by position. Just realised May hasn't played enough to be counted yet.

  1. Craig
  2. McCart
  3. Wotherspoon
  4. Kerr
  5. McCann
  6. Gordon
  7. Tanser
  8. Conway
  9. McNamara
  10. MOH
  11. Parish
  12. Hendry

Think this is one of those things where the raw numbers are never going to accurately show what you see. Having Craig and McCart as the best players this season is clearly wrong, but thats what the figures seem to show. I doubt anyone would agree with McNamara being that low either, yet every model I've tried so far puts him low, due to a lack of end product either in passing or attacking.

Unless.

  1. Kerr
  2. McCart
  3. McCann
  4. Gordon
  5. Craig
  6. McNamara
  7. Wotherspoon
  8. Tanser
  9. Conway
  10. Parish
  11. MOH
  12. Hendry

Feels better, still can't shake McCart/Craig being too high.

Attempt 1000

  1. McCann - 53.05
  2. Kerr - 52.2
  3. McNamara - 49.45 
  4. McCart - 47.65
  5. Gordon - 47.65
  6. Tanser - 43.15
  7. Wotherspoon - 36.15
  8. Conway - 35.65
  9. Hendry - 34.25
  10. Craig - 33.55
  11. MOH - 32.45
  12. Parish - 25.56

Is that about right? I'd have Wotherspoon higher but this is league games only, so his cup games aren't included.

 

Edited by RandomGuy.
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  1. McCann - 53.05
  2. Kerr - 52.2
  3. McNamara - 49.45
  4. McCart - 47.65
  5. Gordon - 47.65
  6. Tanser - 43.15
  7. Wotherspoon - 35.65
  8. Conway - 35.65
  9. Hendry - 34.25
  10. Craig - 33.55
  11. MOH - 32.45
  12. Parish - 25.56

Ignore the numbers, its late so I've just them in so I'm putting folk in the right place, but does that look like a, relatively, accurate ranking of players based only on league games? 

Think I'd prefer it if Wotherspoon was higher.

Probably going to have to rethink the defensive figures, feels like its weighted towards defensive actions, which is why the defenders dominate. Although thats maybe accurate this season and I'm now massively overthinking it.

Players who shouldn't be hugely judged (shouldn't be judging anyone this early yet tbf) yet have these figures...

Clark - 6.27, Rooney - 6.5, Booth - 9.95, Davidson - 12.95, Bryson - 1.4, May - 23.1, Kane - 4.75

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