Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[tree house tam]

9 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

Pundits - " What can Callum Davidson realistically win now that he's won the double?"

 

Callum Davidson- "The championship?"

And that diddy cup if it's still going. It'll be just like Europe lads, playing linfield n shite like that.

[mizfit]

And that diddy cup if it's still going. It'll be just like Europe lads, playing linfield n shite like that.

Oh no, oh no no no no no.
If we are going down I want a seasons break from bigotry. I am not putting up with playing their cosplaying cousins from the failed statelet.

[Saint Stevo]

If he starts with MOH, Middleton, and May, up front against Motherwell and we barely have a shot then I think he'll lose a massive chunk of supporters tbh.
I honestly think he'll do that too.

I'm in the same camp as you with this one about the motherwell game.

CD said a couple of weeks ago that they were reviewing everything to get the team playing better and winning points. I'm still seeing the same formation game after game (I know it's not as straightforward as just switching formation), but something has to give. Surely different personnel in a system that is not working won't make a difference?!

I was encouraged by Devine, Butterfield and Viv last night but if they are just slotting into a failing system and team instruction, are things going to get any better?

[Sh*teAndMuck]

The thing that’s bugging me is that the general formation is the same as last season in which we won two cups, were playing with confidence and in a lot of games were really taking it to teams. Even against Rangers we were looking forward rather than parking the bus.

I remember this time last season (pre-Rooney with Danny Mac up the right) we were getting loads of crosses into the box with nobody getting on the end of them. I remember we were consistently having 15-20 shots on goal and just not getting the breaks. (Maybe stattos on here can confirm this isn’t just me looking back with blue tinted glasses)

We are now completely different even though we have the same type of setup. It can’t solely be down to losing two players. Surely Callum can see that and take steps to get back to how we were approaching games last season?

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

1 hour ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

Where to start?

Callum’s comments and willingness to single out Eetu for indirectly losing us a goal is quite ridiculous.
Eetu’s touch is better than Kane’s. His decision making isn’t his strength and needs to improve, however Kane’s decision making is also poor. For me, I’d give Eetu a chance. He at least tries to get us forward and has a shot from time to time. Just needs backing and support of teammates on the pitch.  Same can’t be said of Kane. He shouldn’t be our main striker. No way. 

POSITIVES…

Butterfield looks like a player.

Viv looks like a player. He needs to be starting.

Devine looks more than capable and a more attacking option. 

NEGATIVES…

Liam Craig - absolutely terrible. If the manager wants to single someone out it should be him. Chance to score, or is Callum not interested in us scoring? Plus he’s got the experience to be able to take the criticism, but no, let’s pick on the young lad and the defensive side of things. 

O’Halloran - like it or not, he’s an experienced player now and should start playing like it and taking responsibility. 

Crawford - complete waste of a jersey. I’ll be raging if we go through with signing him. New midfielder comes in so we move Crawford up the pitch into a front three? If you’re playing that way, play Viv who actually plays in that position and get Crawford out of the team.

General set-up of the team - we simply need to start trying to attack. We need to get players up into the opposition box. Doesn’t matter who plays up front. If they’re on their own with no support it’s never going to work. Unless we’re going to sign Lukaku. 

The manager - Well he’s going to lose support rapidly if he is going to come out with nonsense like the Eetu thing last night. Needs to start focusing on going forward rather than defending. Listened to a clip of Kane’s interview the other day ‘we’ll have to defend well.’ What kind of shite is that coming from our so called main striker? He’s even got the forwards thinking about defending instead of attacking. 

Rant over.

(I reserve the right to continue ranting in due course)

Agree with all of this. Butterfield, Viv & Devine simply need to start. The comments about Eetu from Callum are pretty mental tbh. The lad is less than a year older than Ballantyne, for example, and he’s singled him out for criticism in a game away to Rangers. He didn’t play well but to single a young player out in the press is just never going to be productive in any way.

[RandomGuy.]

58 minutes ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

 

 

I remember we were consistently having 15-20 shots on goal and just not getting the breaks.

Can't remember exactly figures but we were taking a lot of hopeless shots from outside the box last season.

I don't think, barring the odd game here or there, we've ever consistently created decent chances under Davidson. 

[steviemay17]

5 hours ago, NYD1997 said:

The one person who seems to be getting off far far too easy in all of this is the HOR. When he joined the club he should have had a list for every position of suitable targets, which does not appear to have been the case. The only player who from the obvious outset seems to be his signing is Eetu, who doesn’t appear to fit our scheme and way of playing (whether the scheme and way of playing is the right way is another matter)

 

If you look at the guys that have been brought in as free agents - they have either been recommended by Gary Rowatt or one of our own players has done work to get them in - which then questions why weren’t players like this on our HOR’s radar? And why is he not bringing in players in positions we need? That is the main part of his job and so far he has failed at it.

I can only offer my experiences on this, but it's something I feared might be far more prevalent in football than I first thought. I covered Scotland for I think about 18 months as a scout for an English 4th tier team with a big budget, I would report into their HOR who was full time and I'm pretty sure his role would be identical to Grieve.

He had scouts all over the UK working for him and reporting in, and I believe their experience is identical to mine. I'm not trying to tout myself as some kind of gem-finder, they could pay 3-4k a week so any good player in Scotland was within their reach and it was easy to recommend some very good players. We held talks to the points of making offers on a goalkeeper who since got a move to a bigger club up the leagues, someone who is now a Scotland international, plus two more who have since made the move down south and appear to be doing well as far as I can tell.

The keeper they went for instead was such a success that I think he might now be 4th choice, while the striker they took over the option up here (would've been 200k and that now looks like it would've been a bargain) has also been binned after one season and single digit goals.

The response I got after each time one of the moves went in a different direction? The manager (or the assistant) has worked with them before, likes their work-rate and trusts them to carry out his three-at-the-back formation more. The HOR got frustrated to the point that he was considering a move down the ladder where his input would actually be listened to, that manager hasn't worked at a senior level since being sacked as far as I can see and the club is still stuck after 2/3 windows of that recruitment and trying to offload players who work hard but aren't good enough.

Obviously I have zero insider info at Saints so couldn't tell you how things are going down, but this is my main fear for us and it's why I think we are in a lot of trouble.

I can absolutely see a situation where CD only wants players that either he trusts or that Gary Rowatt has worked with and trusts, especially now where he's in a situation where his job may or may not be in the line, but you can be sure any offers from down south are disappearing with our relegation. The Eetu signing was so left-field that I'm sure the HOR was involved in his identification. It's probably fair to say Eetu still has the "halo" affect with fans because we need him to be good, but CD made a big point of not playing him for weeks (or even months?) and also hooks him at every opportunity. We've now got a situation where he's the only player being singled out for public criticism. 

Could it be that CD is trying to make a big point that he doesn't trust the HOR with signings and all of this is to show the board that he has to be given the full control in January? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but that is what I'm scared of. CD has the air of an utterly stubborn/arrogant man who believes he's right at all costs - the formation and sticking with Crawford (Who I presume was his signing) proves he's unwilling to adapt and change, and I can see him being the same with recruitment too.

[jamamafegan]

Did Eetu shag Callum’s missus or something? Seriously, what is his issue. If it’s weird for us looking in from the outside it must be really weird/awkward in the dressing room.

[tree house tam]

I can understand Callum wanting his players in and playing his style of football, that's fine as it's ultimately his head on the block. What I can't understand is him not being willing to adapt to the situations in front of him, be that formation changes, positive substitutions or even just being aware that a player is going to be sent off for a second yellow. Game management is what you work on all week and you absolutely need to have plans A,B and C up your sleeve.

[The Saintee]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

Did Eetu shag Callum’s missus or something? Seriously, what is his issue. If it’s weird for us looking in from the outside it must be really weird/awkward in the dressing room.

WAP heavily suggesting that Vertainen is 100% down to the HOR and that Callum didn't want him.

[The Real Saints]

It must be said that the Vertainens aren’t the only player-affiliated family members who have been endorsing criticism of Callum on social media. It doesn’t feel like he has the tightest grip of the dressing room right now. And if so, who can blame them? I wouldn’t want to play for a manager who treated my teammates like that. No wonder Liam Craig threw himself to the ground in fear of doing something too attack-minded.

[Meesterrodriguez]

Thinking of getting a few of these made for Christmas day

[tree house tam]

20 minutes ago, The Real Saints said:

It must be said that the Vertainens aren’t the only player-affiliated family members who have been endorsing criticism of Callum on social media. It doesn’t feel like he has the tightest grip of the dressing room right now. And if so, who can blame them? I wouldn’t want to play for a manager who treated my teammates like that. No wonder Liam Craig threw himself to the ground in fear of doing something too attack-minded.

Mutiny at Mcdiarmid has a nice ring to it.

[RandomGuy.]

7 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Interesting how Callum says Kane is his main striker. What's his stats Random? Particularly shots versus minutes, then shots on target versus minutes? 

What's folks rough idea for a main strikers stats to be? 4 on target per game seems reasonable to me, below that I'd say they weren't very good.

Whoscored reckon he's on 0.8 shots per game inside the box, highest of anyone that the club. 

Motherwell have 3 players higher, with Watt on 1.4.

I'm not sure it matters who's up front in terms of finishing chances tbh, we just don't create enough regardless.

[PauloPerth]

5 hours ago, Sh*teAndMuck said:

 

 

General set-up of the team - we simply need to start trying to attack. We need to get players up into the opposition box. Doesn’t matter who plays up front. If they’re on their own with no support it’s never going to work. Unless we’re going to sign Lukaku. 
 

I’m in the minority here, but I think our set up was fine last night for a game at the league leaders when we’ve been in such poor form.

If the three players in the attacking positions had shown an ounce of quality between them we might have created something and nicked a chance or goal. 

But the negative set ups for matches against the likes of st Mirren, Hibs, Dundee etc needs to be binned, and should have been months ago.  
 

We all know we’re going to motherwell on Saturday playing for a draw.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, steviemay17 said:

I can only offer my experiences on this, but it's something I feared might be far more prevalent in football than I first thought. I covered Scotland for I think about 18 months as a scout for an English 4th tier team with a big budget, I would report into their HOR who was full time and I'm pretty sure his role would be identical to Grieve.

He had scouts all over the UK working for him and reporting in, and I believe their experience is identical to mine. I'm not trying to tout myself as some kind of gem-finder, they could pay 3-4k a week so any good player in Scotland was within their reach and it was easy to recommend some very good players. We held talks to the points of making offers on a goalkeeper who since got a move to a bigger club up the leagues, someone who is now a Scotland international, plus two more who have since made the move down south and appear to be doing well as far as I can tell.

The keeper they went for instead was such a success that I think he might now be 4th choice, while the striker they took over the option up here (would've been 200k and that now looks like it would've been a bargain) has also been binned after one season and single digit goals.

The response I got after each time one of the moves went in a different direction? The manager (or the assistant) has worked with them before, likes their work-rate and trusts them to carry out his three-at-the-back formation more. The HOR got frustrated to the point that he was considering a move down the ladder where his input would actually be listened to, that manager hasn't worked at a senior level since being sacked as far as I can see and the club is still stuck after 2/3 windows of that recruitment and trying to offload players who work hard but aren't good enough.

Obviously I have zero insider info at Saints so couldn't tell you how things are going down, but this is my main fear for us and it's why I think we are in a lot of trouble.

I can absolutely see a situation where CD only wants players that either he trusts or that Gary Rowatt has worked with and trusts, especially now where he's in a situation where his job may or may not be in the line, but you can be sure any offers from down south are disappearing with our relegation. The Eetu signing was so left-field that I'm sure the HOR was involved in his identification. It's probably fair to say Eetu still has the "halo" affect with fans because we need him to be good, but CD made a big point of not playing him for weeks (or even months?) and also hooks him at every opportunity. We've now got a situation where he's the only player being singled out for public criticism. 

Could it be that CD is trying to make a big point that he doesn't trust the HOR with signings and all of this is to show the board that he has to be given the full control in January? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but that is what I'm scared of. CD has the air of an utterly stubborn/arrogant man who believes he's right at all costs - the formation and sticking with Crawford (Who I presume was his signing) proves he's unwilling to adapt and change, and I can see him being the same with recruitment too.

Really interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. At Livi with Gary Holt as manager, there was a situation a little like what you're describing with Davidson and Vertainen. Early season, Holt slagged this player to the media and I remember thinking "what possible positive effect can doing that have, Gary?". It was a newly-signed foreign player and it's possible the type of dynamics you describe could have been at play a bit.

[derek_holmes]

What a player he was, by the way.

On a related note, I think Melamed's introduction helped us massively last season. He had the knack of getting into positions and scoring goals against the diddies, turning those frustrating 0-0s and 1-1s into positive results and helping enable our resurgence (or at least that's how I remember it - clearly there were other factors too). Doesn't feel like that's going to happen this season

[PauloPerth]

43 minutes ago, derek_holmes said:

What a player he was, by the way.

On a related note, I think Melamed's introduction helped us massively last season. He had the knack of getting into positions and scoring goals against the diddies, turning those frustrating 0-0s and 1-1s into positive results and helping enable our resurgence (or at least that's how I remember it - clearly there were other factors too). Doesn't feel like that's going to happen this season

He did, was a big positive in matches against teams around us. Maybe not so effective against the better teams, but we could certainly be doing with a diddy skelper right now.

[tree house tam]

Cleary signed, currently saying his goodbyes at Dundalk. 

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Cleary signed, currently saying his goodbyes at Dundalk. 

Getting the RCB position sorted a necessity. 

Good to see the club aren't fucking about.