Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Trackdaybob]

3 minutes ago, The Marly said:

A few around me were furious and felt he had done nothing wrong,  although how they could tell from that distance I don't know.

Similar reaction in the north end of the west stand. Almost immediately I received a text from a friend who was watching it on tv confirming it was a red. That was good enough for me at the time  

1 minute ago, monkfish said:

I wonder how addressable that gap is - is it a case that Scotland's youth system is producing players with less technical ability than other countries, or is it just that these other teams generally have more money and therefore have better players, and it's that simple?

Bit of both I expect.

Their first touch to accurate pass time was clearly quicker than ours. Pretty much all over the pitch.

We competed, wore our hearts on our sleeves but any meaningful period(s) of possession was sporadic at best. They were technically superior. And yet I still feel we were so close. It's disappointing for sure. 

[Saint Stevo]

I was in the North Stand, so was too far away to see what happened.  My initial thought was that he had maybe mouthed off at the ref again,  given what had just happened.
A few around me were furious and felt he had done nothing wrong,  although how they could tell from that distance I don't know.  
My feeling was the ref was ten yards away and had the red card out immediately,  so Spoony must have done something.  Having seen it on the telly,  it's obviously a clear red card. 

I was in the East, half way line, and didn't see the incident at all, but the ref was straight to the back pocket for red. He literally gave it zero thought. Spoony did give the ref pelters for not giving him a free kick just before and you wonder if this spiralled into the red card incident and Spoony just lost it. Don't know, I haven't seen the highlights.

However, on the penalty, I didn't think the ref was going to give it. He seemed to take an age to think over that one!

[Saint Stevo]

In many (most?) of the European home games we've lost, I've felt we had a chance to go through but have been beaten by a team that is just technically better - quicker passing, better movement, better positioning, more clinical.
It was the same again last night.
I think that's what makes this one frustrating - there's a sense of 'here we are again'.
In saying that, expecting us to compete like-for-like with LASK is unrealistic. Some of our players just aren't good enough to play well against a team like that - but we're never going to have a team that good on our budget.
Not being defeatist and obviously we should always be trying to improve. When it's happened so many times to us before though, it makes me think the impact of that technical ability gap is more significant than it first appears.
I wonder how addressable that gap is - is it a case that Scotland's youth system is producing players with less technical ability than other countries, or is it just that these other teams generally have more money and therefore have better players, and it's that simple?

The difference with these teams is the pass and movement. They make a pass, then instantly are moving into space. It's great to watch, just no when it's against us!!

They also seem to have a lot more time on the ball. I think we looked a bit rushed last night, but probably due to LASK pressing more than anything else.

[jamamafegan]

This has cheered me up to no end. Pretty pish dra’ and don’t feel like we’re missing out. Finland would have been good though.

[mev]

As an outsider looking in I feel St Johnstone's success last season was built mainly on hard graft and not giving the opposition much time on the ball.  Maybe that's the wrong perception but if it's true then it would be difficult to successfully adopt that kind of game plan when you are playing two games a week.   I suppose that's why you lost to a pretty average United side and just couldn't hit the heights you needed to against LASK.  I think your players looked knackered second half.  I expect you will get back to winning ways when you are playing less games. 

[steviemay17]

It all comes down to the first touch and confidence of it, you can see they were more than happy to knock the ball to someone else first time, while any ball that had to be controlled was pretty much automatic so they could immediately look towards their next action.

Too often the Saints players needed two or three touches to get the ball properly under control, by that time any movement they've seen for the next pass has to be reassessed, they need an extra second or two to recompose and they've shut off passing lanes and have two or three players rapidly closing down on the guy with the ball.

That can't really be taught at senior level, sure you can get a bit better but it mostly comes down to youth coaching, and it means any fundamental changes to the youth approach will need 5-10 years before results can properly be gauged

[tree house tam]

38 minutes ago, monkfish said:

is it a case that Scotland's youth system is producing players with less technical ability than other countries

We do produce technically gifted players, most of it is coached out of them, then they are discarded for big honest laddies, there are the odd exceptions of course.

The amount of youth coaches out there teaching 8-9 year old kids playing 7 aside about systems and making them play in "their" positions is frightening. 

[RandomGuy.]

56 minutes ago, Radford said:

You kind of excused not having the squad built when the games were in June but we had so much extra time this campaign and still have been virtually inactive. 

Tbf how many permanent signings under Davidson have felt planned?

Maybe give him a pass last Summer, but we didn't make any in January. Gilmour signed in February despite being a free agent for 5 months, which sort of hints we needed someone but couldn't find anyone in the window.

This Summer it's only James Brown, who was with us last season and only joined because McNamara went back to Millwall and Brown was easy to get.

Vertainen obviously different but that's because we've a Head of Recruitment now, rather than something we planned for before this window. 

Are loan signings planned for in advance? Maybe Middleton this Summer I guess.

Hopefully that changes going forward now, but we were in a really strong position 2/3 months ago, yet it seems we've completely squandered it by everything being so slow. New HOR should've been in place before the window opened, rather than waiting to bring him in a month before the window ends.

[Shipa]

Now, in the cold light of day...

First time I've ever left a game before the final whistle. Angry at the time - right behind the goal and thought the penalty was soft, also though Callum should have been making the changes sooner, guys have played their hearts out twice a week and it was showing. More disappointed than angry now, not so much at the players as for them.

Felt LASK were that little bit quicker than us, that little bit stronger in the challenges, read the game that little bit better, small margins but make a big difference at this level. Really thought we were still in with a shout until the reds started flying.

Ultimately, still very proud of what we have achieved, and now we can concentrate on defending those cups!

[The Real Saints]

This has cheered me up to no end. Pretty pish dra’ and don’t feel like we’re missing out. Finland would have been good though.

This wouldn’t have been our draw. LASK were 1st seeds.

[tree house tam]

7 minutes ago, The Real Saints said:

This wouldn’t have been our draw. LASK wee 1st seeds.

Don't let facts get in the way of a Jamama moan please.

[Valentino Bolognese]

1 hour ago, tree house tam said:

We do produce technically gifted players, most of it is coached out of them, then they are discarded for big honest laddies, there are the odd exceptions of course.

The amount of youth coaches out there teaching 8-9 year old kids playing 7 aside about systems and making them play in "their" positions is frightening. 

This, 100 times. Competitive football is in age bands, so adolescent boys an be playing against kids a foot or more taller than them and almost double their weight. V

It's mental and does nothing for their skills or confidence. Late developers, or kids that just happen to be a year younger at an age where kids grow at different rates, don't have much chance. 

Malcolm Gladwell wrote about it in one of his books, about the difference in how likely you are to move on to professional sport depending on when your birthday is rather than ability. Think it was 'The Tipping Point'. 

[Mr Heliums]

14 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

This, 100 times. Competitive football is in age bands, so adolescent boys an be playing against kids a foot or more taller than them and almost double their weight. V

It's mental and does nothing for their skills or confidence. Late developers, or kids that just happen to be a year younger at an age where kids grow at different rates, don't have much chance. 

That touched a nerve. My son was a really talented rugby player, then at 14, as most of his contemporaries doubled in height, he lost his place in the team and drifted out of the sport. He was just a late developer – he's now 6'4 – but no interest in the sport any more.

On the big honest laddie side of things, there was a  lad who played football for the school team around the same time. He was old for his year and very tall, and so had an immense physical advantage over everyone else. Signed by a Premiership side, and even played for them a couple of times as a teenager, but I see he was released by them a couple of years ago.

 

 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

18 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

That touched a nerve. My son was a really talented rugby player, then at 14, as most of his contemporaries doubled in height, he lost his place in the team and drifted out of the sport. He was just a late developer – he's now 6'4 – but no interest in the sport any more.

On the big honest laddie side of things, there was a  lad who played football for the school team around the same time. He was old for his year and very tall, and so had an immense physical advantage over everyone else. Signed by a Premiership side, and even played for them a couple of times as a teenager, but I see he was released by them a couple of years ago.

 

 

Agreed that there is too much focus on height/strength at a young age (or certainly was, it might have changed a bit now). It’s a difficult one for scouts I think, one of my mates was banging in 70 goals a season for our team, a decent player on the ball and a really good finisher but a large part of his success was due to his size and speed. It would be hard to ignore that kind of player for a pro youth team. Do you have him playing with 16/17 year olds aged 13? Some of the nepotism that used to go on at Saints was a bit ridiculous though.

I would say the larger problem was coaching any individuality/creativity out of kids and focussing too much on shape/tactics at a young age as tam says. Not enough touches of the ball and opportunities to try things without repercussions.

 

[Radford]

I'd agree with general points about development. Folk often question what happens between when players can sign professionally and that 20/21 age bracket.

Surely the technical side of the game is mastered in your pre-teen years, i.e before that? That's when you master the coordination and touch required?

I don't know how it works with clubs at that level but kids shouldn't be in the gym and certainly shouldn't be getting tactical stuff drummed into them because Barry fancies himself as the next Pep and wants to show the world how good a coach he is.

Lot to be said for players playing in groups defined by size in those early years.

So what happens when clubs get their hands on them full time? The term was used and is it fair, the ability is coached back out of them?

You even just need to look at the Saints B team that played East Fife a couple of weeks ago. Land of the giants.

This has all been discussed for years though.

[THE FAT MAN]

2 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

This has cheered me up to no end. Pretty pish dra’ and don’t feel like we’re missing out. Finland would have been good though.

I don't think the draw would be the same if we were in it as different pots

[jamamafegan]

Don't let facts get in the way of a Jamama moan please.

I am going to pretend this would have been our draw. It helps to numb the pain.

[Mr Heliums]

A cracking atmosphere - even in the Ormond Stand – last night. But looking for something to focus on other than the football, what's with our ticketing system? The Main Stand was billed as being sold out, but there were dozens, or maybe hundreds of seats available there. And last week the United section in the Main Stand  didn't look full despite being 'sold out' days in advance.

[tree house tam]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

 

Surely the technical side of the game is mastered in your pre-teen years, i.e before that? That's when you master the coordination and touch required?

I don't know how it works with clubs at that level but kids shouldn't be in the gym and certainly shouldn't be getting tactical stuff drummed into them because Barry fancies himself as the next Pep and wants to show the world how good a coach he is.

Lot to be said for players playing in groups defined by size in those early years.

So what happens when clubs get their hands on them full time? The term was used and is it fair, the ability is coached back out of them?

You even just need to look at the Saints B team that played East Fife a couple of weeks ago. Land of the giants.

This has all been discussed for years though.

Your first point is a good one, you can see which players have the basic qualities they need to be a great player in pre teens. Everyone develops at different age and stages though. Most people know about the French and Clairefontaine, bone age calculations done pre-puberty and the taller you were perceived to be, the more likely you were to be chosen for entry. It's a  bit harder over here as we are generally a tad smaller. No doubt some Random will tell me that's wrong, it just seems we're midgets compared to them.

There's a lot of things clubs teach young players, good stuff like how/what to eat and at what times etc. I sometimes used to wish parents would when I was coaching. Wee laddies turning up for games with a McDonald's breakfast and a coke 15 minutes before warm up wasnt ideal.

I think in general youth coaching has improved dramatically in the  last 15 years but there are plenty of complete belters out there more interested in winning than developing, frustrating as f**k imo.

[mizfit]

Your first point is a good one, you can see which players have the basic qualities they need to be a great player in pre teens. Everyone develops at different age and stages though. Most people know about the French and Clairefontaine, bone age calculations done pre-puberty and the taller you were perceived to be, the more likely you were to be chosen for entry. It's a  bit harder over here as we are generally a tad smaller. No doubt some Random will tell me that's wrong, it just seems we're midgets compared to them.
There's a lot of things clubs teach young players, good stuff like how/what to eat and at what times etc. I sometimes used to wish parents would when I was coaching. Wee laddies turning up for games with a McDonald's breakfast and a coke 15 minutes before warm up wasnt ideal.
I think in general youth coaching has improved dramatically in the  last 15 years but there are plenty of complete belters out there more interested in winning than developing, frustrating as f**k imo.

Your point on dieting has reminded me of Hibs under John Collins. I’m pretty sure he tried to change the lunch menu and the players were going mental about burgers and chips being replaced by pasta and salads. Grown men kicking off because they were asked to eat specific foods whilst they were in for training days.