Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[Dick Van Dyke]

19 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Things change as you well know. There's no getting away from the shambles of the window so far, or that Tommy has built an unbalanced squad. Most people at the start of the season would have been ok with 3 or 4 quality players coming in, we have a former Scotland striker and club hero signed, an international CB signed, with 2 more/maybe 3 to come in. Whether that's good enough no one knows but I'm willing to wait and see, to give it a chance, without clapping like a sea lion.

I wish I lived in lala land too. 

[tree house tam]

13 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I think you're right - 3 or 4 quality players would have been more than acceptable. In reality though, we're looking at 1 guaranteed quality player out of 6, another, two loans that might come good, a project that isn't ready yet and two back up goalkeepers who we'll only ever see if Clark is injured. Wright seems to have taken the 'ageing' squad critique from journalists and those wanky twitter analysts to heart and taken us too far the other way in terms of experience.

Considering the quality we've lost, I don't think this represents a good enough window for us. There's no obvious whipping boys in the league (although we're showing worrying signs that it might be us) and we've no divine right to stay up. After the next two matches - Aberdeen away and Rangers at home - we could be bottom by at least a couple of points and possibly more. I'm not sure I'd back this squad to pull us out of that - there doesn't seem to be many winners in the Maclean/Millar mould kicking around the squad.

 

I don't really count the the squad fillers as new signings tbf, Duffy, the 3rd choice goalie etc are replacing like for like(Comrie, Hurst et al). What he should be judged on imo is the main signings, May, Vihmann and whoever comes in today. I'm looking forward to seeing who that is, I'd like it to be Holt as him and McCann could be a great 2 behind our attacking players but that's just my personal choice, the full backs will be what I judge SB and TW on.

 

5 minutes ago, Dick Van Dyke said:

I wish I lived in lala land too. 

You do mate.

Edited September 2, 2019 by tree house tam

[RandomGuy.]

I'm just ignoring today, tbh, itll probably change once we sign someone and/or I finish work, but I cant be arsed getting worked up about it after the mess this whole window has been.

[Dick Van Dyke]

@tree house tam you must be in the minority in looking forward to who we sign today. I’m dreading the Ralston announcement, and I’d put money on him being our only business today. 

[Kyle]

Which is totally fair. I'm sure the club didn't envisage that Foster would be leaving and Duffy would be de facto first choice afterwards but that's where we are with him. As unfortunate and unfair as that is, he'll be judged on that basis.

If we end today with Holt, Ralston and whoever at left back, it'll represent a better window but still not a very good one IMO. We've lost all the experience we had at the back (Foster, Shaughnessy, Easton and most likely Anderson all gone and replaced with players who are all aged 23 or younger, unless the left back is older) and I'm still not sure if Holt alone would be enough to resolve our midfield issues. 

 

[Valentino Bolognese]

9 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I think you're right - 3 or 4 quality players would have been more than acceptable. In reality though, we're looking at 1 guaranteed quality player out of 6, another, two loans that might come good, a project that isn't ready yet and two back up goalkeepers who we'll only ever see if Clark is injured. Wright seems to have taken the 'ageing' squad critique from journalists and those wanky twitter analysts to heart and taken us too far the other way in terms of experience.

Considering the quality we've lost, I don't think this represents a good enough window for us. There's no obvious whipping boys in the league (although we're showing worrying signs that it might be us) and we've no divine right to stay up. After the next two matches - Aberdeen away and Rangers at home - we could be bottom by at least a couple of points and possibly more. I'm not sure I'd back this squad to pull us out of that - there doesn't seem to be many winners in the Maclean/Millar mould kicking around the squad.

 

Who is your guaranteed quality player?

We've got May, club legend and talisman but quite high risk and the CB who so far appears to be mince. Does Duffy count? So that's a very raw RB that's a project and not a starter yet. 

I'm neither seal-clapping nor pissing myself. I think that the squad we have should stay up (yes Saturday was terrible but hopefully Tommy now feels he doesn't have to play 5 over the middle with Kane up front). FWIW I thought Wright looked fanstic at RB for the short time he was on and if he was up for it I'd think it would be worth starting him there, to allow us to play M-M-M in attack, at least until we see if he can hack it defensively (although on last season I can imagine he's at least as competent as Tanser). 

However, also agree that we should be aiming for better than just staying up ... maybe that's the longer term plan with the age of the players we have? 

In truth I was hoping for more in our second year of transition but we made good signings late last year. More than happy to pick over the bones of it tomorrow so let's wait and see.

 

 

[Templar]

Many managers say the most important part of a team is its spine. The first players Souness bought were for the spine of his team Woods, Butcher, Roberts, and Francis and himself in the centre

What positions do we need to fill today before the window shuts. Compare our Scottish winning spine with today's team 

Mannus.................................................................................Clark

Anderson Wright..............................................................Kerr Gordon

Millar Dunne.......................................................................Davidson Craig

McLean May......................................................................Kane May 

Clark and Mannus just as strong

Anderson Wright and Kerr and Gordon at this moment in time weaker and inexperienced they may come good but no signs yet.

Millar Dunne and Davidson Craig Both Millar and Dunne were strong players who brought others into the game, they also broke up opponents attacks It is this breaking up the attacks we are lacking

McLean May and Kane May only time will tell but McLean always gave you goals

I see our present problem as relying on two young Centre backs and not having good defensive midfielder (we have never replaced Millar)

In my opinion we need a Centre back and defensive midfield player but we will not get them as we have to get cover for both fullbacks first.

[Kyle]

8 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Who is your guaranteed quality player?

We've got May, club legend and talisman but quite high risk and the CB who so far appears to be mince. Does Duffy count? So that's a very raw RB that's a project and not a starter yet. 

I'm neither seal-clapping nor pissing myself. I think that the squad we have should stay up (yes Saturday was terrible but hopefully Tommy now feels he doesn't have to play 5 over the middle with Kane up front). FWIW I thought Wright looked fanstic at RB for the short time he was on and if he was up for it I'd think it would be worth starting him there, to allow us to play M-M-M in attack, at least until we see if he can hack it defensively (although on last season I can imagine he's at least as competent as Tanser). 

However, also agree that we should be aiming for better than just staying up ... maybe that's the longer term plan with the age of the players we have? 

In truth I was hoping for more in our second year of transition but we made good signings late last year. More than happy to pick over the bones of it tomorrow so let's wait and see.

 

 

Given the breakdown I provided, surely the quality player in my mind is quite obvious?

[Valentino Bolognese]

8 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Given the breakdown I provided, surely the quality player in my mind is quite obvious?

Well yes I get that you mean May, but my point was that given his adventures since leaving us I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he's a 'guaranteed' anything. Guaranteed boxoffice maybe but he could still be anything on the park. Personally I hope and expect he'll be a hero once again, but I'd not put the mortgage on it. 

46 minutes ago, Kyle said:

If we end today with Holt, Ralston and whoever at left back, it'll represent a better window but still not a very good one IMO.

Agree with this. I'd be happy enough with a starting lineup that looked something like;

Clark

Wright Kerr Gordon Tanser

McCann Holt Davidson

MOH May Kennedy

That's assuming Wright can play RB. That's better than average quality for this division and we've still got experince on the bench and if we make your signings we have a bit of cover in most areas and players to be developed. A bit more experience at CB would be ideal though. 

It's not a deep squad though - as per the brief that Tommy has been given by Brown.

[Kyle]

2 minutes ago, Valentino Bolognese said:

Well yes I get that you mean May, but my point was that given his adventures since leaving us I think it's a bit of a stretch to say he's a 'guaranteed' anything. Guaranteed boxoffice maybe but he could still be anything on the park. Personally I hope and expect he'll be a hero once again, but I'd not put the mortgage on it. 

Agree with this. I'd be happy enough with a starting lineup that looked something like;

Clark

Wright Kerr Gordon Tanser

McCann Holt Davidson

MOH May Kennedy

That's assuming Wright can play RB. That's better than average quality for this division and we've still got experince on the bench and if we make your signings we have a bit of cover in most areas and players to be developed. A bit more experience at CB would be ideal though. 

It's not a deep squad though - as per the brief that Tommy has been given by Brown.

I was more meaning May's ability to play at this level is guaranteed rather than anything else. He didn't score anywhere near enough goals for Aberdeen but his general level of performance was good. He's the only one we can expect a certain level from, the others we are just hoping.

[Radford]

You know a window has been a stinker when folk start sticking players out of position in line-ups.

Why don't we play Jamie Adams up front...

[DukDukGoose]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm just ignoring today, tbh, itll probably change once we sign someone and/or I finish work, but I cant be arsed getting worked up about it after the mess this whole window has been.

[Dons_1988]

47 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I was more meaning May's ability to play at this level is guaranteed rather than anything else. He didn't score anywhere near enough goals for Aberdeen but his general level of performance was good. He's the only one we can expect a certain level from, the others we are just hoping.

Apart from the miserable fuckers who just love calling everyone shite, Stevie May was well liked amongst the support and people genuinely disappointed it didn't work out. His work rate is obviously brilliant but he got more assists for us than some give him credit for too.

Whether he was asked to or whether it was him himself I thought he spent too much time outside the box doing work but even when he did get in goalscoring positions he just seemed like he'd lost the knack for finishing.

[tree house tam]

21 minutes ago, Radford said:

You know a window has been a stinker when folk start sticking players out of position in line-ups.

Why don't we play Jamie Adams up front...

The only one in Valentinos would be Drey Wright, which is a position he played for with his last club and excelled in enough for us to sign him, it's also one we will hopefully have a new player for in today. We all know you've lost your mojo lately about Saints Radford but c'mon your better than this.

[Valentino Bolognese]

25 minutes ago, Radford said:

You know a window has been a stinker when folk start sticking players out of position in line-ups.

Why don't we play Jamie Adams up front...

Is he out of position? I was led to believe he's been played as RB at previous clubs.

I know he's listed as a winger and that's where we played him until he was injured, but there was no reason to consider him as RB then. 

[PauloPerth]

2 hours ago, Radford said:

Big day. Those that have pleaded for patience and assured the doubters that the signings will come face their own day of reckoning as much as the manager and chairman. They may forever be tarred with the stench of herring. 

What were you looking for everyone to do, have a daily meltdown on the internet?  Stand outside McDiarmid with placards?

Since the end of the Millar/ Maclean era 2 years ago, the manager’s ‘bigger’ targets have been Scougall, MacMillan, Wright, Kennedy, Swanson, O’Halloran, Goss (loan) and May.  The club has signed them all.

All the permanent signings have been attacking midfielders or strikers. The first team players brought into defence have been Tanser (who was brought in as cover at LB) 3 years ago, and Vihmann.

We’ve also extended contracts for Clark and Kerr.

When you consider the fact we play in front of just over 2000 home fans a week, then I actually think our signings have been of an impressive standard over this time.  

The manager picks his targets. It’s his decision to concentrate most of our resources higher up the park rather than defence or centre midfield. 

Clark and Tanser are good enough for this league, Kerr and Gordon as a pairing were good enough in matches against bottom six sides at the end of last season. They need more games to gel this season though. Foster leaving has created a hole, which an experienced right back would ideally fill. If not, I would go along with the suggestions of Drey Wright there.  Personally, I would have liked an experienced centre half in the Frazer Wright mould as an option. The manager chose a young international, fair enough sounds good on paper.

A different option in centre midfield has been needed for a while. Holt sounds ideal. If not, last season a centre midfield of Craig and Davidson (sometimes Callaghan) got us to 4th at the winter break.  Arguably breaking that up, and throwing Goss in there disrupted us and was a factor in our loss of form.  But that same midfield, with the introduction of McCann, isn’t suddenly not good enough for this standard. It’s not outstanding by any means, but is easily competitive with the teams in mid-table/ bottom six.

The squad of players we had available on Saturday was comfortably good enough to beat a poor kilmarnock side.  It’s upto the players to do their jobs properly, and cut out the stupid mistakes.

Its also upto the manager to get them organised properly and pick the right team. 

Away from the big 5 clubs, there’s not one team I would swap our squad of players for. Individuals yes, but overall no.

Time to stop with looking at everything else as an excuse, and time to start delivering on the park.

Won’t happen overnight, with the two tough matches ahead, but I’m confident we’re good enough to climb the league.

 

[Kyle]

Just looking at Wright's last season at Colchester. Seems to be like he played on both wings and as a number 10 behind the striker. Not saying he hasn't played at right back but I don't see any evidence that's a role he's familiar with?

I don't want to be losing Wright's attacking ability on the wing to fill a hole at right back to be honest. He looked well capable of playing there on Saturday but it feels a bit of a waste to have such a talented attacking player worrying about defending.

[Valentino Bolognese]

4 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

What were you looking for everyone to do, have a daily meltdown on the internet?  Stand outside McDiarmid with placards?

Since the end of the Millar/ Maclean era 2 years ago, the manager’s ‘bigger’ targets have been Scougall, MacMillan, Wright, Kennedy, Swanson, O’Halloran, Goss (loan) and May.  The club has signed them all.

All the permanent signings have been attacking midfielders or strikers. The first team players brought into defence have been Tanser (who was brought in as cover at LB) 3 years ago, and Vihmann.

We’ve also extended contracts for Clark and Kerr.

When you consider the fact we play in front of just over 2000 home fans a week, then I actually think our signings have been of an impressive standard over this time.  

The manager picks his targets. It’s his decision to concentrate most of our resources higher up the park rather than defence or centre midfield. 

Clark and Tanser are good enough for this league, Kerr and Gordon as a pairing were good enough in matches against bottom six sides at the end of last season. They need more games to gel this season though. Foster leaving has created a hole, which an experienced right back would ideally fill. If not, I would go along with the suggestions of Drey Wright there.  Personally, I would have liked an experienced centre half in the Frazer Wright mould as an option. The manager chose a young international, fair enough sounds good on paper.

A different option in centre midfield has been needed for a while. Holt sounds ideal. If not, last season a centre midfield of Craig and Davidson (sometimes Callaghan) got us to 4th at the winter break.  Arguably breaking that up, and throwing Goss in there disrupted us and was a factor in our loss of form.  But that same midfield, with the introduction of McCann, isn’t suddenly not good enough for this standard. It’s not outstanding by any means, but is easily competitive with the teams in mid-table/ bottom six.

The squad of players we had available on Saturday was comfortably good enough to beat a poor kilmarnock side.  It’s upto the players to do their jobs properly, and cut out the stupid mistakes.

Its also upto the manager to get them organised properly and pick the right team. 

Away from the big 5 clubs, there’s not one team I would swap our squad of players for. Individuals yes, but overall no.

Time to stop with looking at everything else as an excuse, and time to start delivering on the park.

Won’t happen overnight, with the two tough matches ahead, but I’m confident we’re good enough to climb the league.

 

Don't have enough greens for this post. 

 

 

[RandomGuy.]

20 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

The prospect of a Radford meltdown has dragged me back in tbh.

This is what deadline days are.

[Kyle]

13 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

Spoiler

 

What were you looking for everyone to do, have a daily meltdown on the internet?  Stand outside McDiarmid with placards?

Since the end of the Millar/ Maclean era 2 years ago, the manager’s ‘bigger’ targets have been Scougall, MacMillan, Wright, Kennedy, Swanson, O’Halloran, Goss (loan) and May.  The club has signed them all.

All the permanent signings have been attacking midfielders or strikers. The first team players brought into defence have been Tanser (who was brought in as cover at LB) 3 years ago, and Vihmann.

We’ve also extended contracts for Clark and Kerr.

When you consider the fact we play in front of just over 2000 home fans a week, then I actually think our signings have been of an impressive standard over this time.  

The manager picks his targets. It’s his decision to concentrate most of our resources higher up the park rather than defence or centre midfield. 

Clark and Tanser are good enough for this league, Kerr and Gordon as a pairing were good enough in matches against bottom six sides at the end of last season. They need more games to gel this season though. Foster leaving has created a hole, which an experienced right back would ideally fill. If not, I would go along with the suggestions of Drey Wright there.  Personally, I would have liked an experienced centre half in the Frazer Wright mould as an option. The manager chose a young international, fair enough sounds good on paper.

A different option in centre midfield has been needed for a while. Holt sounds ideal. If not, last season a centre midfield of Craig and Davidson (sometimes Callaghan) got us to 4th at the winter break.  Arguably breaking that up, and throwing Goss in there disrupted us and was a factor in our loss of form.  But that same midfield, with the introduction of McCann, isn’t suddenly not good enough for this standard. It’s not outstanding by any means, but is easily competitive with the teams in mid-table/ bottom six.

The squad of players we had available on Saturday was comfortably good enough to beat a poor kilmarnock side.  It’s upto the players to do their jobs properly, and cut out the stupid mistakes.

Its also upto the manager to get them organised properly and pick the right team. 

Away from the big 5 clubs, there’s not one team I would swap our squad of players for. Individuals yes, but overall no.

Time to stop with looking at everything else as an excuse, and time to start delivering on the park.

Won’t happen overnight, with the two tough matches ahead, but I’m confident we’re good enough to climb the league.

 

 

I've spoiler tagged this but as I don't want to quote a long post again on the same page, but this is a very fair post.

The chairman has shown real ambition of the last few years. Wright by his own admission has been able to get his first choice targets and we've got some excellent attacking options in the squad, particuarly on the wings. You have to wonder how wise it is for Wright to focus so heavily on that though - we're now in a position where all of our defenders are 24 or younger, we have 2 experienced central midfield options that the manager trusts (given that Callachan can hardly make the match day 18 these days and the other player who's now starting regularly is 19) and I think our top league goalscorer in the squad from last season is Matty Kennedy with 5 goals.

We've also got at least 2 experienced, expensive players who we can't get rid of and we'll probably have to pay off today, and the aforementioned Callachan who could well be in the same boat. There's been rumours at different points about McClean, Hendry and Swanson being loaned out/leaving too. When you have a first team pool of around 24 players, having a quarter of your players with question marks over their heads can't be good for squad unity.

There's a lot of potential in this squad and when it clicks we are brilliant to watch. We are very soft centred though and, other than the previous 2 matches before Saturday, haven't shown much grit to get ourselves out of losing positions.

I think Wright and Brown are right in the respect that this is going to be a rollercoaster season. I think the future lesson needs to be to put the squad together a bit quicker and maybe to take less chances re long contracts with older players - McMillan and Anderson (and Easton before them) have had virtually zero value since signing their most recent contracts with us.