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Meth Damon

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17 minutes ago, Comrie said:

Joshua is a fantastic physical specimen with limited skills and no imagination for how to change things if they aren't going well. He gets found out by the smarter boxers who change angles and actually use good footwork/body movement/head movement.

I'm not sure where he goes now. Probably Chisora. Wilder just absolutely sparks him as he's so easy to hit.

This is spot on. Joshua’s plan A is basic boxing, and he doesn’t have a plan B or plan C to turn to. The real world class operators will go in with plan A and move on to B or C within the first round if they realise it’s not working. Joshua didn’t attempt anything different towards the latter stages of that fight, he knows how to box one way and that’s it. 

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3 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

This is spot on. Joshua’s plan A is basic boxing, and he doesn’t have a plan B or plan C to turn to. The real world class operators will go in with plan A and move on to B or C within the first round if they realise it’s not working. Joshua didn’t attempt anything different towards the latter stages of that fight, he knows how to box one way and that’s it. 

I'm sure this got discussed on here a while back.... Its the difference with that lack of pedigree. He doesnt know what to do in the ring when its not going the way he wants. He cant adjust, he doesn't stay calm. Ruiz 1 is a great example of guy who has been round the block and a guy who hasn't, and the difference in fight management.

A flat track bully. Admittedly a good one who reached a high level, but could never reach the highest (at this moment, Fury and Usyk) for that reason. 

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22 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

I'm sure this got discussed on here a while back.... Its the difference with that lack of pedigree. He doesnt know what to do in the ring when its not going the way he wants. He cant adjust, he doesn't stay calm. Ruiz 1 is a great example of guy who has been round the block and a guy who hasn't, and the difference in fight management.

A flat track bully. Admittedly a good one who reached a high level, but could never reach the highest (at this moment, Fury and Usyk) for that reason. 

I agree with that but are we really saying a boxer at the level of Joshua, with a 10/12 week training camp, can’t mix up his style for a few rounds at the end of a fight when it’s obvious it’s not going his way. Even if from round 10, where Usyk had his best spell, if Joshua had started grappling and pulling, sticking his forehead right into Usyks and trying to land some short hooks. That’s just an example of SOMETHING he could have done. I’m not saying it would have worked, because it probably wouldn’t have, but standing an arms length from Usyk and trying to plod forward like he’s hitting a heavy bag definitely wasn’t going to work. 
 

There is amateurs in my gym 14 or 15 year old who can mix up styles depending on their opponent, who can fight on the back foot for a couple of rounds or get inside and try to spoil their opponents work. Maybe Robert Garcia had been working on stuff like that with Joshua and he just disregarded it, but he’s never going to be elite, and hes never going to beat the elite, if he can’t adapt his style even slightly.

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4 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I agree with that but are we really saying a boxer at the level of Joshua, with a 10/12 week training camp, can’t mix up his style for a few rounds at the end of a fight when it’s obvious it’s not going his way. Even if from round 10, where Usyk had his best spell, if Joshua had started grappling and pulling, sticking his forehead right into Usyks and trying to land some short hooks. That’s just an example of SOMETHING he could have done. I’m not saying it would have worked, because it probably wouldn’t have, but standing an arms length from Usyk and trying to plod forward like he’s hitting a heavy bag definitely wasn’t going to work. 
 

There is amateurs in my gym 14 or 15 year old who can mix up styles depending on their opponent, who can fight on the back foot for a couple of rounds or get inside and try to spoil their opponents work. Maybe Robert Garcia had been working on stuff like that with Joshua and he just disregarded it, but he’s never going to be elite, and hes never going to beat the elite, if he can’t adapt his style even slightly.

Against someone like Usyk..... Yeah. I mean, you watch most guys go in against Canelo these days with a plan. By the end they have shelled up. It was the same with Floyd. You see the same with Loma. As much as its a criticism of AJ who i'm no fan of, its a flaw thats only going to get exposed against the best. Usyk is an elite, great in any era boxer. Its a bit of "everyone has a plan till they get hit." If you spend 10 rounds watching someone like Usyk adjust and answer back to everything you do, you are going to run out of ideas. 

I think back to Shane Mosley v Floyd for an example of this. Shane has just absolutely blootered Margarito. He was still a fairly big puncher if not the absolute destroyer of his heyday. He rattled Floyd in Rd 2, and yet by the end of the fight, he was quite literally too scared to throw. These great fighters, they just leave you with no ideas. Gunshy, and scared to get hit clean. AJ didnt go gunshy per se, but his heart was broken after he had a bug round 9, and an apparently tired and rocked Usyk responded with an absolute bleaching in round 10. 

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24 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Against someone like Usyk..... Yeah. I mean, you watch most guys go in against Canelo these days with a plan. By the end they have shelled up. It was the same with Floyd. You see the same with Loma. As much as its a criticism of AJ who i'm no fan of, its a flaw thats only going to get exposed against the best. Usyk is an elite, great in any era boxer. Its a bit of "everyone has a plan till they get hit." If you spend 10 rounds watching someone like Usyk adjust and answer back to everything you do, you are going to run out of ideas. 

I think back to Shane Mosley v Floyd for an example of this. Shane has just absolutely blootered Margarito. He was still a fairly big puncher if not the absolute destroyer of his heyday. He rattled Floyd in Rd 2, and yet by the end of the fight, he was quite literally too scared to throw. These great fighters, they just leave you with no ideas. Gunshy, and scared to get hit clean. AJ didnt go gunshy per se, but his heart was broken after he had a bug round 9, and an apparently tired and rocked Usyk responded with an absolute bleaching in round 10. 

To the part in bold; was Usyk actually that good last night? Did he even need to be? He constantly kept his head moving, dropped his height, moved his feet after he got a couple of punches away, covered up when he needed to and took a lot of AJs punches on his elbows and gloves. But I think that’s just standard for a guy operating at the level Usyk is. He didn’t need to do anything eye catching, and one mental scorecard excepted, he won quite handily. I think any fighter that comes with the experience and pedigree Usyk has, boxes at a level where they subconsciously slip punches, dip under hooks and move their feet after landing. It’s literally second nature for Usyk, it’s his baseline. Joshua struggles to do the stuff that Usyk does without even thinking about it, that’s the difference. 
 

That American judge gave Joshua 5 of the first 6 rounds btw. Fair enough they were close but that’s just not a true reflection of what happened. 

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4 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

To the part in bold; was Usyk actually that good last night? Did he even need to be? He constantly kept his head moving, dropped his height, moved his feet after he got a couple of punches away, covered up when he needed to and took a lot of AJs punches on his elbows and gloves. But I think that’s just standard for a guy operating at the level Usyk is. He didn’t need to do anything eye catching, and one mental scorecard excepted, he won quite handily. I think any fighter that comes with the experience and pedigree Usyk has, boxes at a level where they subconsciously slip punches, dip under hooks and move their feet after landing. It’s literally second nature for Usyk, it’s his baseline. Joshua struggles to do the stuff that Usyk does without even thinking about it, that’s the difference. 
 

That American judge gave Joshua 5 of the first 6 rounds btw. Fair enough they were close but that’s just not a true reflection of what happened. 

I get your point but it's all relative isn't it. He was as good as he needed to be

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33 minutes ago, MONKMAN said:

Out of curiosity, what's the biggest fight in history? 

Moneywise i meant

In reality ali foreman still?

Lewis tyson was hyped to hell but tyson deed loss

First eubank benn fight my favourite 

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Feel like there's a lot of downplaying of AJ going on. 

He's got a decent CV. He's a skilled boxer that managed to put away an all time great in the inferior Klitschko (still reckon Vitali would've beaten both Fury and AJ IMO) even if he was about 75.

I genuinely think the issue is his coaching team. Utterly bizarre and amateur instructions.

The head coach didn't even know what round it was at one point and was repeatedly telling AJ he'd won the early rounds despite that not being the case.

Fury realised that he wouldn't get back to the top with the rookie trainer that helped him lose weight and punted him after Wilder 1. AJ really needs to get a team together that will force him out of his comfort zone and not just having one plan.

Because as we clearly witnessed, AJ doesn't have a plan B and that's on the trainers. Some fighters are natural at it but AJ clearly isn't. So he needs someone that can work on that type of stuff.

In the 6th round, AJ caused Usyk a good bit of trouble with a few body shots and that looked like he'd worked that out himself. Yet when he went back to the corner, the coach was telling him to focus on the jab.

Now if that's something an average armchair watcher can spot then questions need to be asked not only about Joshua but of his coaching team too.

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10 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

Feel like there's a lot of downplaying of AJ going on.

I don’t think thats the case tbh, he’s a multiple heavyweight world champion and that can never be taken away from him. You don’t get to that level by chance so he deserves credit for that. 
 

I think what’s become apparent in these two Usyk fights, last night especially, is that Joshua is a very limited fighter who has relied on his power to get guys out of there. When he’s been faced with someone he can’t overwhelm, his shortcomings are there for all to see. His lack of movement is a big issue, his inability to change tact mid-fight makes him easy to work out and as you say, it doesn’t look like he’s been coached well enough for the challenge of Usyk.

You would like to think that Joshua and his team had been working on specifics throughout their camp. Picking apart footage of Usyk and looking for chinks in his armour. I didn’t see any evidence of that last night. He wasn’t trying to bring Usyk on to him and time him, he wasn’t trying anything out of the ordinary that may have made Usyk think. There’s obviously still a place for him amongst the top heavyweights, but unless something drastic happens he’s not beating Fury or Usyk, and I would fancy Wilder, and to a lesser extent Whyte, to beat him as well. 

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I don’t think thats the case tbh, he’s a multiple heavyweight world champion and that can never be taken away from him. You don’t get to that level by chance so he deserves credit for that. 
 
I think what’s become apparent in these two Usyk fights, last night especially, is that Joshua is a very limited fighter who has relied on his power to get guys out of there. When he’s been faced with someone he can’t overwhelm, his shortcomings are there for all to see. His lack of movement is a big issue, his inability to change tact mid-fight makes him easy to work out and as you say, it doesn’t look like he’s been coached well enough for the challenge of Usyk.
You would like to think that Joshua and his team had been working on specifics throughout their camp. Picking apart footage of Usyk and looking for chinks in his armour. I didn’t see any evidence of that last night. He wasn’t trying to bring Usyk on to him and time him, he wasn’t trying anything out of the ordinary that may have made Usyk think. There’s obviously still a place for him amongst the top heavyweights, but unless something drastic happens he’s not beating Fury or Usyk, and I would fancy Wilder, and to a lesser extent Whyte, to beat him as well. 


A fighter/coach relationship is worth something if it's built up over time like AJ McCracken for example. Or Hatton and Billy Graham. Many such cases, but they are high profile examples of late career splits which fit what I'm saying.

When you see a fighter take a loss and suddenly change teams that is alarm bells for me. You don't have time to change.

You didn't get to where you are yourself. All of those achievements are what you can do, and what they have drilled you, prepared you for, when they have reigned you in, when they have let you go.

Someone else can't just step in and be part of that and somehow make you outbox the guy who undressed you a few months ago.

McCracken would have made a better fist of it than Garcia did in terms of adjustments IMO
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