Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Richie]

To the shock of noone, the media going after David Turnbull this morning for having the temerity to reject Celtic's offer

Edited June 17, 2019 by Richie

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Casagolda said:

What a bizarre transfer all round. 

I refuse to believe that Motherwell and Celtic were in negotiations for weeks and at no point did anyone consult Turnbull on whether or not he actually fancied the move or what was on offer if he went there. For the deal to suddenly break down at the last minute seemed strange but it does happen I suppose, for a multitude of reasons. 

However, for Celtic to chuck their toys straight out the pram in such a public fashion- whilst calling him a money grabber to their pals in media, yet still leaving the deal ‘on the table’ is pretty much unheard of. 

To me, it sounds like Celtic knew they were the only show in town and have called his agents bluff. It’s been what, five days since we accepted their bid? Yet despite all this talk of interest down South, not one other club has bothered to meet our asking price. Which suggests as expected, Alan Burrows and co were right all along.

Fully expect him to be a Celtic player now by the end of the week. Although they’ll argue the ends justify the means, I’m not sure anyone came out of this whole thing looking particularly good. 

Reading between the lines it looks like Celtic are basically a last resort for Turnbull. Having them involved helpfully raises the profile of the transfer and also means there's a player involved who'd put up a decent amount of cash and let Motherwell weed out tyre kickers. Going by the apparent reluctance for others to follow up on their interest and match the current offer it suggests that Celtic are overpaying (a McGinn tax if you will).

In line with that; I'm guessing that no one really expected them to meet the asking price as quickly as they did.

Everything around the announcement that the bid had been accepted was (correctly) caveated. "potential transfer", "Should the deal go through". Burrows was even qualifying things in his impromptu Twitter Q&A on Wednesday night: "If the deal goes through", "as the deal hasn't even happened yet.". All of that is 100% correct as the deal hadn't been concluded - in hindsight it makes you wonder if there was an awareness that the personal terms process may not be entirely straightforward.

Not going to lie, the heads-gone from Celtic Twitter about that announcement confirming the offer has been quite something.

There seems to be a genuine belief that Motherwell communicating that a bid had been accepted is somehow underhand or out of the ordinary - they literally did the same thing when the news broke that Leicester were in for Brodge. Also, it's absolutely wild that they think Motherwell wouldn't have notified every interested party that a bid had been accepted as soon as it came in anyway.

The kicker definitely seems to have been the initial rejection of the contract offer.

As has been mentioned, his agent also looks after Stuart Armstrong so there's no chance he doesn't know Celtic's wage structure and the wage that would be on offer. Which in turn suggests that Friday's *plot twist* was a strategic delay. If that's the case it'd explain Celtic's reaction and subsequent Twitter meltdown if they feel they're very obviously being played and used for leverage.

So while the contract is still 'on the table' they're in a position where they're paying c.£3m for a player who at best, only has a lukewarm interest in signing for them. Yikes!

I think it's probably odds-on he still ends up at Celtic but I guess the curveball of Friday means there's an outside chance he does in fact tell them to poke their offer or Celtic simply withdraw.

If nothing else the whole episode probably puts to bed the idea that English clubs are willing to just drop £5m on players up here without blinking and also probably kills the notion that David Turnbull is cutting about telling all his pals he's absolutely desperate to sign for Celtic.

Edited June 17, 2019 by capt_oats

[dezz]

Yeah, I don't really see where we look particularly bad in this whole scenario. We accepted a bid, and with the agreement of Celtic released a short, fully caveated, statement confirming the situation as the press had got hold of the story. As @capt_oats says, I don't really see what is underhand about that and you can bet every club who'd registered an interest would have been informed of Celtic's bid immediately, statement or not. 

The only bit that I find quite odd is Alan Burrows statement about how we had been negotiating with Celtic for weeks on the deal, surely Turnbull/his agent would have verbally informed Celtic of his demands and intention to sign as the clubs were negotiating the fee rather than having a bid accepted and then being knocked-back (lol)? Unless there has just been a massive mis-communication between the agent and Celtic (unlikely) then is simply seems that DT isn't overly interested in Celtic and is using their offer is purely a backstop while the agent flushes out English interest.

Despite this, I agree with others that it's likely he'll end up at Celtic by then end of the week unless the Sheff Wed interest comes to fruition in the next 48 hours or so.

[capt_oats]

There were a couple of lines in Gordon Waddell's article in the Sunday Mail yesterday that could potentially explain a lot:

Quote

Championship new boys Barnsley’s offer fell well short, but it’s understood that Bristol City in particular are ready to join the fray, with others like Premiership Bournemouth on standby if other deals they have in the pipeline don’t get over the line.

Celtic, though, believe their best chance of heading other interest off at the pass and avoiding a repeat of last summer’s John McGinn saga, is to get him signed quickly.

If #TeamTurnbull feel there are other genuine preferable options out there that just aren't on the table yet it'd explain their reluctance to commit. Especially if they feel that Celtic are trying to railroad it through and get it done before anyone else gets in.

It's the middle of June and the window still has another couple of months to run. If he's genuinely not sold on Celtic then I can 100% understand the hesitance to tie himself to a long term deal at a club he may not really want to join.

[dezz]

2 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

There were a couple of lines in Gordon Waddell's article in the Sunday Mail yesterday that could potentially explain a lot:

If #TeamTurnbull feel there are other genuine preferable options out there that just aren't on the table yet it'd explain their reluctance to commit. Especially if they feel that Celtic are trying to railroad it through and get it done before anyone else gets in.

It's the middle of June and the window still has another couple of months to run. If he's genuinely not sold on Celtic then I can 100% understand the hesitance to tie himself to a long term deal at a club he may not really want to join.

I mean, that makes sense. Celtic are essentially doing what we are this summer re transfers - trying to get our targets signed up and committed early because if we hang around and the players ends up with several offers to choose from we'll lose out. Welcome to the world of the diddies, Celtic.  

[well fan for life]

The sizzling hot takes around the wages are really quite something. I suspect the issue isn't the money itself but rather that the wage doesn't reflect someone who will start regularly. I don't know the guy but he seems like he's more interested in playing every week than picking up £6k getting a start in the league cup a few times and warming the bench. If he was entirely motivated by the cash I suspect an offer of 10x his current wage would have already seen him jump ship. 

I don't see an issue with the way the club dealt with it. The statement seemed to be a case of getting ahead of the story breaking rather than having the Record spouting nonsense about it. Celtic's twitter response is, while very funny, a complete riddy on their part. The correct public response to the contract talks was for there to be no public response. 

 

[DukDukGoose]

https://thecelticblog.com/2019/06/blogs/yes-other-clubs-might-match-celtics-bid-for-turnbull-but-all-involved-should-know-the-real-costs/

Doesn't appear to be bothered at all.

[capt_oats]

25 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

https://thecelticblog.com/2019/06/blogs/yes-other-clubs-might-match-celtics-bid-for-turnbull-but-all-involved-should-know-the-real-costs/

Doesn't appear to be bothered at all.

By all accounts the chat on Twitter dot com is that he's signing for them. Done deal. White smoke and all that. Much backtracking to ensue.

I'd guess that from his/his agent's POV it'll be about pivoting to a new strategy.

It may not be the move he wanted but he's 20 next month, realistically if he takes his chance and gets in the first team, nutmegs Messi when they're getting pumped in the CL or laughs in Neymar's face he could easily be looking at the EPL or move to Europe in 18 months and follow the Dembele/Ntcham pathway.

From Motherwell's POV everything they said last week still applies: transformational club record etc. On top of that Burrows comment about it being the optimal value for the player right now seems to be supported by the fact that despite making it clear he was up for auction there were no other takers at that price.

Basically Celtic are over-paying to get him through the door.

Edited June 17, 2019 by capt_oats

[Busta Nut]

20 hours ago, Drew Brees said:

 

Just like most other transfers then, fee agreed, personal terms offered, agents makes counter offer, both parties consider their next move. Only in this case Celtic made an arse of it by releasing an embarrassing tweet and the fans of every other club go mental.

Aye there was defo no Celtic fans "going mental"

 

He was always gonna sign for Celtic. I doubt anything was ever "rejected". They went away to think about it and whore himself out. The weekend to pretend they are thinking about it. A call on Monday to say they have considered all options and would like to accept.

 

(If he does sign for them)

[welldaft]

If he does sign for Celtic then they are still getting one of the best young players in recent years.

We are still getting a club record fee and potential future earnings from 15% sell on fee. 

Maybe they are paying over the odds a little, but based on fees paid down south and if he does fulfil his potential then it will be a good deal for Celtic based either on whether he plays half a dozen seasons plus and / or is sold for multiples of £3m 

Would rather not see him play against us but would also rather we moved on and could focus on strengthening our squad for a tough season ahead. Especially since we need strikers who can score goals.

 

[capt_oats]

Aye, that comment about them over-paying is slightly salty on my part.

It's still a good deal for them and it's in their interests to continue his development for exactly that reason. That extra £750k-£1m (or whatever) they may be paying to keep themselves out of a straight up fight with EPL/Championship sides just now could easily be repaid in multiples on the back of his next move.

Edited June 17, 2019 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

4 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Aye, that comment about them over-paying is slightly salty on my part.

It's still a good deal for them and it's in their interests to continue his development for exactly that reason. That extra £750k-£1m (or whatever) they may be paying to keep them out of a straight up fight with EPL/Championship sides just now could easily be repaid in multiples on the back of his next move.

I'd say it's a bit of both. After the very public humiliation around the McGinn saga there's no way Celtic could be seen to be losing out again because they're lowballing offers so they probably have gone in a bit high. 

It won't be the biggest surprise if he does end up at Celtic by the end of the week. If he does I look forward to them trying to sweep their twitter meltdown under the carpet. 

[Dons_1988]

48 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

https://thecelticblog.com/2019/06/blogs/yes-other-clubs-might-match-celtics-bid-for-turnbull-but-all-involved-should-know-the-real-costs/

Doesn't appear to be bothered at all.

Superb stuff. Although he could have reduced that entire article down to 'HOW DARE HE??'

[well fan for life]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Superb stuff. Although he could have reduced that entire article down to 'HOW DARE HE??'

I found the whole article tough to read over the tears & snotters surrounding it. 

[Luke92]

Even if Turnbull does end up going to Celtic it is very obvious that Turnbull's first choice was to go down south. The fact their fans will all know this now makes the whole thing worth it really. The realisation that not everyone grows up wanting to play with the Old Firm is too much for them to comprehend.

Celtic and their fans can backtrack all they like but they have put the player in a very awkward position and he is basically going to be starting his career there at a bit of disadvantage if he goes moves. Celtic as a club have not come out of this looking good whatsoever. The statement was very Jim Traynor.

We all know how Old Firm fans minds work and even if he goes there and scores 15 goals in the first six months they will always have this at the back of the mind and think he is constantly choking to get down to England.

[Bobby_F]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

I'd say it's a bit of both. After the very public humiliation around the McGinn saga there's no way Celtic could be seen to be losing out again because they're lowballing offers so they probably have gone in a bit high. 

It won't be the biggest surprise if he does end up at Celtic by the end of the week. If he does I look forward to them trying to sweep their twitter meltdown under the carpet. 

Absolutely this.

Add to that the fact that McGinn since been a major factor in Villa winning promotion to The Promised Land, and his value has no doubt trebled on what Celtic refused to pay last year, then I'd imagine the last thing they'd want to do would be to be seen as losing out due to biscuit tin mentality again.

[Luke92]

Linky

In unrelated transfer news the Daily Record are reporting some developments with Chris Cadden. I honestly thought the development fee was supposed to be a lot higher than 200k? Perhaps the club have decied to come to some sort of compromise (which i can see us doing) to let Cadden move on.

"Oxford are hoping to tie up a deal for Chris Cadden after reaching an agreement with Motherwell over compensation, writes Gary Ralston. Record Sport understands the League One side are desperate to land the Scotland international but interest from America remains in the midfielder. Cadden is out of contract but Well are due a development fee of £200,000"

[supermarv]

8 minutes ago, Luke92 said:

Linky

In unrelated transfer news the Daily Record are reporting some developments with Chris Cadden. I honestly thought the development fee was supposed to be a lot higher than 200k? Perhaps the club have decied to come to some sort of compromise (which i can see us doing) to let Cadden move on.

"Oxford are hoping to tie up a deal for Chris Cadden after reaching an agreement with Motherwell over compensation, writes Gary Ralston. Record Sport understands the League One side are desperate to land the Scotland international but interest from America remains in the midfielder. Cadden is out of contract but Well are due a development fee of £200,000"

I don’t know why but I thought it was around the 600k mark for his compensation, which was the reason many clubs were put off, no? Correct me if I’m wrong.

[well fan for life]

3 minutes ago, supermarv said:

I don’t know why but I thought it was around the 600k mark for his compensation, which was the reason many clubs were put off, no? Correct me if I’m wrong.

I'm not sure what the exact method of working it out is but I'm sure someone on here knows *looks at @capt_oats*. But I thought the same thing. If we were allegedly getting £400k for Hastie then Cadden must be worth more as he's been here longer?

Edited June 17, 2019 by well fan for life

[capt_oats]

I'd guess that there's a fair chance The Record's figure is out (slightly). The most recent quote was £400k IIRC The Motherwell Times had it at that. I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned elsewhere recently (maybe Scott Mullen?).

Going back to the Hearts £100k offer then it was £600k Robinson mentioned.

If we've agreed to the compensation I'd think it'll be something we're happy with even if there's been a bit of leeway to build in a sell on or such.

Edit: I've had a look around and recent articles just says "a substantial/hefty fee" would be due.

Again, if it's an "agreed" fee then given Marv went to Boro for £2.5m would you rule out us shaving off a bit of money in order to build in a bigger sell on?

Edited June 17, 2019 by capt_oats