Al B Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 31 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: So take the money and pay off the debt and just carry on like normal? I think you're wildly over-estimating what our debt is, not least taking into account it's all a soft loan, and that for every pound that gets paid back, and additional pound gets written off. Effectively every pound paid back reduces the debt by £2. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke92 Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Regardless of how he left it was going to be a sore one. Obviously what has added to it for a lot of people is who he is going to. Alongside this to we have lost two of the best talents we have had in quite some time to the Old Firm in short succession. Clearly this is the reality of being a Motherwell fan but it still doesn't make it any less depressing. A lot of the 'giving up season ticket' stuff has been completely uncalled for but you are going to get that reaction from a couple of folk within a large group of football fans. The other camp we have is folk apparently rubbing their hands and congratulating the club on bringing in so much money. Personally I don't really get much satisfaction in the club getting transfer fees when it means our best player in a generation is going to Celtic. I understand the financial benefit this money will have but I don't really get the satisfaction some fans appear to have. I think the difficulty is knowing that a lot of the money we get is unlikely to be reinvested in the playing squad. For that reason I find it hard to get excited about incoming $$$ as a fan who attends games on a Saturday. Anyway, my opinion is that there is a fine balance between our model of developing/selling on versus keeping fans like myself onside and the club in the division. Ultimately Motherwell as a club need to sell guys on, this is how we stay afloat. Somewhere along the line though we need to use this money to increase the budget we operate at currently. My fear for the club is if we continue to sell off all our key players as quickly as they break through, the 'well' (pun intended) will run dry in terms of youth prospects and recruitment elsewhere. We need to get the balance right to ensure we keep enough of our good players to compete at a decent level in the division. If we are looking at things on the pitch and away from the financial side of things it is very debatable that we are getting the good out of our youth prospects when they leave after such a short period of time. The aim has to be to hold on to guys for at least a couple of first team seasons and move them on. Personally I would like us to use a sensible amount of this fee to increase wage bill this season. Not by a ridiculous amount but at a level better than previous years. I really don't think it is unrealistic to expect us to eclipse the likes of St Johnstone and Accies for example. Players like Aribyi would be a good example of someone we could recruit. Hopefully this would allow us to get 1/2 of the players we normally lose out on to clubs down south. It's hard to argue that the club should have turned this money down but I do think there can be a decent argument made that we sold pretty early. I think the club made it very public what our valuation of the player was (newspapers were quoting 3m last week) Obviously it's a risk/reward scenario but had we held out until the end of the window/January we could be looking at a bigger fee. I don't think you can just assume that others clubs (bigger clubs) would not have become interested. It will be interesting to see what the account say in regards to fee, there is quite a lot of sources reporting that it was quite a bit under 3m plus 250k add on's. No sell-on fee has been mentioned but it would be absolute madness if that was not the case. I suspect we have done the right thing in that regard. Overall, I'm clearly gutted about DT leaving but I'm hopeful the club can do the right thing in terms of using the money to progress and strive to be better rather than accepting mediocrity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisGRAEME Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Be sound when this is all over and we can get back to talking about Nadir and electro in here tbh, what a slog this is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 The worst thing about this thread is the fans of other teams in here with there fucking stupid comments/suggestions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Busta Nut said: The worst thing about this thread is the fans of other teams in here with there fucking stupid comments/suggestions. Slander about the good citizens of P&B. Very rude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: 3 minutes ago, Al B said: I think you're wildly over-estimating what our debt is, not least taking into account it's all a soft loan, and that for every pound that gets paid back, and additional pound gets written off. Effectively every pound paid back reduces the debt by £2. I quoted a Motherwell fan on here who says it makes you debt free. I've no idea what your debt is, havnt said I do know either. Either way it certainly batters into it with this fee. I know, and in turn I'm providing you with a bit of further info. You're saying this fee "batters into" our debt, and previously said that we use it to pay it off and everything else continues as normal. I'm just clarifying that it seems you are over-estimating what our debt is, going by those comments. We could completely wipe out all of the debt we owe anyone, and what's left over is still significantly more than we've ever brought in in a single transfer. I'd estimate our total debt to be around half a million, interest free, with only a percentage of that actually requiring payment thanks to the "double your money" scheme. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Luke92 said: If we are looking at things on the pitch and away from the financial side of things it is very debatable that we are getting the good out of our youth prospects when they leave after such a short period of time I think this is a fair point and one that I feel too. If the success criteria for the academy is to supply players for the first team (which as a supporter, most of us really enjoy), it could conceivably be a victim of its own success and actually fail to do that. If the best prospects are moved on early for development fees like McKinstry, or spend a vanishingly short time in the first team (like Hastie or Hall) then we would be in the weird position where the academy was effectively providing funds for us to take our annual punt on the lower league lottery to bring in journeyman players... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: Why are you going on about my team ? Did I say spend money on overpaid "names" ? Did I ask a question about it ? You seem awfy angry. I hope you succeed. Just like I do all Scottish clubs bar two. You will have another big fee coming in by the sounds of it also for another youth player. Training facilities will be exciting to have. The Dosh Celtic gave Dundee for Hendry worked out well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Swello said: I think this is a fair point and one that I feel too. If the success criteria for the academy is to supply players for the first team (which as a supporter, most of us really enjoy), it could conceivably be a victim of its own success and actually fail to do that. If the best prospects are moved on early for development fees like McKinstry, or spend a vanishingly short time in the first team (like Hastie or Hall) then we would be in the weird position where the academy was effectively providing funds for us to take our annual punt on the lower league lottery to bring in journeyman players... I see what you're saying, but I do think that's assuming our approach now is going to be our approach going forward. I don't think that will be the case at all. What I see us as doing at the moment, is getting us to be fully self-sustaining as quickly as possible, and then in a couple of years our M.O. will change as the main benefit of it will be that we can be fully flexible season-upon-season. Kinda like saving all your wages to pay off your mortgage...you're not going to keep saving the same amount after it's paid off, you revise your financials to suit your current situation. Getting the best money for whoever we can, be that a first teamer or a kid, is our approach to our current situation. In a couple of years that situation will be completely different, so our approach will be different. Edited June 13, 2019 by Al B 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsr Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, JohnnyReggae said: Yes that's very true. Hamilton pay their debts. And Nigerian princes too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, JohnnyReggae said: Yes that's very true. Hamilton pay their debts. Hamilton are so efficient at managing their finances, they paid out a million quid they didn't even owe anyone.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Just now, Al B said: I see what you're saying, but I do think that's assuming out approach now is going to be our approach going forward. I don't think that will be the case at all. What I see us as doing at the moment, is getting us to be fully self-sustaining as quickly as possible, and then in a couple of years our M.O. will change as the main benefit of it will be that we can be fully flexible season-upon-season. Kinda like saving all your wages to pay off your mortgage...you're not going to keep saving the same amount after it's paid off, you revise your financials to suit your current situation. Getting the best money for whoever we can, be that a first teamer or a kid, is our approach to our current situation. In a couple of years that situation will be completely different, so our approach will be different. Fully agree with that - but the problem for me is that regardless of our financial health, it's going to be tricky to stop bigger clubs hoovering up our better prospects before we actually get to see them play for us. The chat around McKinstry was basically "you can't stand in the way of a life changing move" and with our resources, that will always be the case. On the wider point, I'm pretty optimistic about the future direction generally as having the mortgage paid off does open up other possibilities.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Swello said: Fully agree with that - but the problem for me is that regardless of our financial health, it's going to be tricky to stop bigger clubs hoovering up our better prospects before we actually get to see them play for us. The chat around McKinstry was basically "you can't stand in the way of a life changing move" and with our resources, that will always be the case. On the wider point, I'm pretty optimistic about the future direction generally as having the mortgage paid off does open up other possibilities.... Absolutely, I completely agree. I think that's just the rough with the smooth of having an effective academy though. Each year your best product gets made a life-changing offer, and then you're 2nd/3rd/4th best are brought into the side. It does as you say, mean that we will rarely get to see the clubs best you prospect play for the first team, but it's what effectively keeps the academy going in terms of profile, recruitment, funding etc in order to ensure that those 2nd/3rd/4th best prospects are sill at a good level. Swings and Roundabouts for me, and just one of those things I'm happy to accept. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Moomintroll Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 It is becoming a virtuous circle, Motherwell keep bringing prospects through with varying degrees of financial reward. Through this they can prove to players & parents that they have an effective pathway, as long as the Academy structure remains in place or improves due to self generated revenue being invested wisely & the First Team Management continue to give players chances, then that will continue to improve. At the moment Motherwell are one of the biggest good news stories with regards to potential National Team benefit around & I applaud them for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: Why are we mentioning Dundee in a Motherwell thread? I guess other fans just cant question or say anything. Even saying positive things dosnt end up good. Tommy Coyne though :-) I would suggest that mighty well fans know their club better than a Dundee fan or a Celtic fan. It doesn't matter what we think they should and shouldn't do with the dosh time will tell. For me the good thing is the player is staying in Scotland and the dosh. Hopefully the player will make the grade and fulfil his potential. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I understand the frustration, particularly around players like McKinstry & McAleer who we never saw, or are likely to see, in the first team. It's just, sadly, the way football is going. With the money the English clubs have nowadays, they can afford to flood their Academies with players they bring in from smaller clubs for a few hundred grand each. Even Celtic & Rangers have lost a youngster to Chelsea in recent years, so it happens to bigger clubs than us. Football clubs don't bat an eyelid at telling a 18/19 year old they're not good enough to stay at the club and to make their way to the dole queue, so can they really stand in their way of 16/17 year olds if they're being offered big money by clubs in England? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Al B said: Absolutely, I completely agree. I think that's just the rough with the smooth of having an effective academy though. Each year your best product gets made a life-changing offer, and then you're 2nd/3rd/4th best are brought into the side. It does as you say, mean that we will rarely get to see the clubs best you prospect play for the first team, but it's what effectively keeps the academy going in terms of profile, recruitment, funding etc in order to ensure that those 2nd/3rd/4th best prospects are sill at a good level. Swings and Roundabouts for me, and just one of those things I'm happy to accept. The other thing I suppose is that as both Craigan and Ross have said; realistically you're looking at one or two Academy players breaking into the first team per season. If we're getting offers for others in the group then it gives us and the player a decision. This season it was about getting Turnbull into the first team, by all accounts Hastie was planned for next season but circumstances fucked that up. In a purely practical sense we're unlikely to just chuck all the kids in. Though it may be fun if we did. It's really about how we manage it and I suppose the way this season has gone there's probably enough Academy success to re-evaluate how many fit into the pathway. Ross has already nailed his colours to the mast in terms of Semple and Cornelius. So where does that leave someone like McAlear? He's a Scottish Youth International and apparently being "tracked" by Leicester and West Ham. He's got a year to go on his deal but, for whatever reason, it seems others are ahead of him in the pecking order. If that interest becomes real can we really "stand in his way"? We've dished out a 3.5 year contract to James Scott presumably because we see a viable long-term development there. I'd guess that's really the only way we could realistically manage the Academy 'prospects' in a long term sense but as the likes of Thomas, MacLean and Watt have shown in the past it's a huge risk to start tying 17 and 18 year olds to long term deals and also getting them and their reps to agree is different story entirely. Edited June 14, 2019 by capt_oats 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: Why mention Dundee ? If I put downfield juniors as my team would it of made a difference? Why is it good the player is staying in Scotland? Surely you are not suggesting he wouldn't of made it in England or wherever he landed ? I couldn't give a feck about England,the more talent we have in Scotland the better the league we will have. For me Turnbull needs another season of first team football and in a ideal world he would've stayed at motherwell to progress. The biggest problem Scottish clubs have is the blight lights down south we need to keep all our talent as long as possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: I couldn't give a feck about England,the more talent we have in Scotland the better the league we will have. For me Turnbull needs another season of first team football and in a ideal world he would've stayed at motherwell to progress. The biggest problem Scottish clubs have is the blight lights down south we need to keep all our talent as long as possible. "Blight", like blighty? I see what you did there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desp Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: The biggest problem Scottish clubs have is the blight lights down south we need to keep all our talent as long as possible. Certainly now, you are correct in that the biggest problem (or market, depending on your viewpoint) is that of the bigger teams in England. With regards to the part in bold, the problem in Scotland we used to have was that Celtic and Rangers took that too literally, and took all the best players from other teams in Scotland, and didn't always use them particularly wisely. Even now, can you suggest the likes of GMS, Ciftci, Hendry, Allan got better by being at Celtic? Did Celtic improve? The previous clubs of these players certainly got weaker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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