Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[YassinMoutaouakil]

3 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

The same manager introduced Campbell to the first team.

To be fair, Campbell played twice under McGhee and they were both months apart from each other. Some of what you said is spot on but it seems unfair to give McGhee the credit instead of Robinson who actually gave him his first run in the team.

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

To be fair, Campbell played twice under McGhee and they were both months apart from each other. Some of what you said is spot on but it seems unfair to give McGhee the credit instead of Robinson who actually gave him his first run in the team.

My point is really this, Robinson has not given a young player a debut and then given him a run.

The only young player he has given a run, Campbell, already had good performances under his belt at first team level and was around the first team squad.  And let's remember that Campbell had a series of good performances in the team at the end of the 2016-17 season  only to find himself on the bench and down the pecking order when Robinson brought in Bigirimana, Rose and Grimshaw.  Also worth remembering that Campbell didn't feature in any league cup group games at the start of 2017-18, nor the opening two matches of the season (which we lost), and only established himself with those two superb sub appearances when he turned both matches round.  I might be wrong, but nothing about those course of events says to me that Robinson had a master plan to bring Campbell on as a first team player last season.  It happened because Robinson's actual plan failed and Campbell took his chance. 

Now Robinson deserves credit for giving Campbell the chance but it only makes some of his other decisions regarding youth players even more baffling.  MacLean frozen out for Petrevicius?  Maguire instead of taking a step up, moving back behind new transfer Liam Donnelly?  Turnbull playing excellently in the last couple of games last season but can't get on against Edinburgh City or Stranraer?  Gordon (20), Hastie (20) and MacLean (21) being loaned out in the last year of their contracts?  Sammon brought in instead of bringing on James Scott?

As for McGhee. McGhee's record of developing youth is not really under question.  His record is there by either giving debuts to players who established themselves later - say Shaun Hutchinson or Allan Campbell etc or giving young players runs in the side that they hadn't previously had - say Chris Cadden or Jamie Murphy etc  At the end of the day Robinson doesn't have that record.   If he does one day, I'll lay a path in rose petals for him, but he hasn't and doesn't look like doing so.

I think if you are being honest we all know what Robinson's game plan is.  Big lads, high balls, physical football.  Youth players are not going to feature unless, like Kipre, they are almost unbelievable physical specimens.

[wellboy1991]

How many have been involved so far this  season? 
Cause we’ve already used 19 different players so far in just 2 games and those 3 you mentioned haven’t had a sniff. We had 1 member of our youth system in our 18 man squad yesterday and he made his debut under Stuart McCall over 4 years ago.  
Personally, the whole improve 12-19 thing this summer doesn’t sit well with me. We’ve now got a bloated squad with over 20 senior players but still carry a lot of the same underlying problems as last season. 
Lack of pace, lack of guile, lack of creativity etc all on show again yesterday. Plus, our own youngsters are pushed further down the pecking order as a result. David Turnbull for example was excellent in his 2 starts towards the tail end of last season, wasn’t even in the squad yesterday.
Just my opinion mind and fully understand other may think differently. Personally though I’d rather see us run with a smaller squad fleshed out by some of our youth players instead of just filling our squad with more of the same type of player.
Yesterday you had Ross Maclean scoring for Morton and Jake Hastie putting in by all accounts an excellent performance(including winning a penalty) for Alloa while our final sub was taking Conor Sammon off and putting on Ryan Bowman. Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on The titanic. 

Couldn’t have typed it better myself Casa.

[Desp]

Interesting.  Not that I'm disagreeing much with what Casagolda & Ya Bezzer! are saying - they both make valid points - but it's interesting to see that if/when we get to a point where we are going through a poor run of results, there won't be a lot of sympathy and credit in the bank for Robinson. 

FWIW, I don't agree with Robinson's approach this summer.  It's very much bringing in players to pad out the squad, rather than bringing players in to improve the team.  Will any of the players brought improve the starting XI?  Maybe ATS?  It's a risky approach, but I'm happy to trust the gaffer at this point.  I think he'll need a good start though, otherwise a popular Steelmen Online thread will be back before we know it. 

[welldaft]

In all honesty you could debate our style v substance all day long as Ya Bezzer likes to do on occasion. 

We have a players wage budget and one that is lower than almost every other team bar Hamilton for the season just gone. Probably will be above them Livingston and St Mirren for this season. 

I am not sure what players we are expected to sign at that level ? A team full of silky creative types just like Luka Modric... The reality is that our Manager is trying to use the budget to get a team on the park to avoid relegation first and foremost. On the budget we had we had no right to reach 2 cup finals and beat Rangers and Aberdeen in the semis. It is almost as if that did not happen and that Robinson is getting almost no credit for that. 

The compromise is that our football is robust and not always a lot of fun to watch at times. But I have said it before and I will say it again. Would we rather have a team full of Bigi’s for example and find ourselves bumping along the bottom of the table. I am sure the usual glass half empty on Steelmen and on here would be content with that as long as we were trying to play football the correct way - NOT. 

For all that I do agree with a number of points. I would like to see the likes of Turnbull, Scott and Maguire given a little more opportunity. Quite frankly Scott looked better in pre season friendlies than Sammon has so far. Time will tell as I still think Sammon will be a decent enough signing for us. I also like Bigriamana and the few times he has come on as sub end of last season we improved immediately as a team. I am surprised and disappointed there appears to be no place for him. I can see him leaving and us regretting it.

 

 

 

 

[Swello]

Lots of things to agree with in the posts above - and it's possible to agree with them without going over the top with negativity or leaping to judgement after 2 semi-competitive games.

Like a lot of others, I could easily have lived with a few less squad players and leaning more on the better emerging U20's players as to my mind, when we've done that over the years, they've stepped up to the mark more often than not. Even if they barely make the grade, One of our Own > English lower league journeyman for lots of reasons. 

I think we all understand that our inability to cope with multiple injuries during the busiest fixture period of the season had a big effect on our final league position (although it certainly wasn't the only factor) but I wonder if prioritising the strengthening of the "12-18" with external signings rather than promoting from within (where we could) will hurt us. I wonder if one genuine quality signing at the expense of 2 or 3 of the 12-18's wouldn't serve us better given the solid first 11 that we have...and it's on exactly that type of calculation that managers enhance or diminish their reputations... 

While I think it's dangerous to treat the Betfred group as an accurate guide, my early feeling for the season is that we will continue to be difficult for the better teams in the league where the onus is not on us to dictate the game but might find it difficult against the poorer teams where we are expected to make the running. 

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

Lots of things to agree with in the posts above - and it's possible to agree with them without going over the top with negativity or leaping to judgement after 2 semi-competitive games.

Like a lot of others, I could easily have lived with a few less squad players and leaning more on the better emerging U20's players as to my mind, when we've done that over the years, they've stepped up to the mark more often than not. Even if they barely make the grade, One of our Own > English lower league journeyman for lots of reasons. 

I think we all understand that our inability to cope with multiple injuries during the busiest fixture period of the season had a big effect on our final league position (although it certainly wasn't the only factor) but I wonder if prioritising the strengthening of the "12-18" with external signings rather than promoting from within (where we could) will hurt us. I wonder if one genuine quality signing at the expense of 2 or 3 of the 12-18's wouldn't serve us better given the solid first 11 that we have...and it's on exactly that type of calculation that managers enhance or diminish their reputations... 

While I think it's dangerous to treat the Betfred group as an accurate guide, my early feeling for the season is that we will continue to be difficult for the better teams in the league where the onus is not on us to dictate the game but might find it difficult against the poorer teams where we are expected to make the running. 

This is largely where I am.

I'm not disagreeing or white knighting Robinson but it's probably worth noting that there have, as yet, been no outgoings from our the first team.

All our sellable assets are still at the club. Carson's still there, Kipré's still there, Cadden's still there. I'd imagine that probably frames the transfer business thus far.

It feels to me, and I could be miles out, that the business we've done thus far is replacing/improving like for like(ish) those who were released. Clearly I've no idea what our budget's like but I'd doubt it's been increased any from last season irrespective of the cup runs. In that case the money we'd have available to recruit is whatever we were paying Griffiths, Plummer, Petravicius, Hendrie, Aldred and Ciftci.

Given 3 of those were loans I don't think it's a massive leap to suggest that it's not going to be (relatively) a lot of money we've had to play with. Even more so when you factor in the contract extensions for Kipré, Tait, Dunne, Bowman, Rose and Grimshaw at the end of last season. You'd think at least 3 of those would have seen a decent wage bump.

The logical (and fairly reasonable) counter to that is that it's a waste of budget, we should sign fewer players and we should be utilising the 'youth' players more. That's all fine and well until David Ferguson's getting his arse handed to him by Jordan Jones and hooked after 35 mins, Jack McMillan's getting reamed by a Dundee side sticking 5 past us in a first half or Dom Thomas is being hooked inside an hour against East Stirling.

Also, at that point you find yourself with exactly the same argument folk were making  when they were wringing their hands about the bold DT23  a few years back, we were stunting his development by only giving him 10-15 mins or he wasn't even getting off the bench. Thomas' subsequent failure to make a dent on a Killie side with one of the best managers in the league and eventual loan to the Championship (again) suggests that perhaps our judgement wasn't as flawed as some would have had you believe.

I've spent the past few years on here talking up Jake Hastie and David Turnbull I think they're cracking players. I honestly think both have the potential to match or better the impact Cadden and Campbell have had and I 100% think they should both be in consideration for the first team but when it comes to it I'd rather they were getting regular 90 mins than sat on our bench and getting 10 mins on the off chance someone picks up an injury.

Anyway, on the point of outgoings it seems quite significant that we had Bigi (presumably a relatively high earner) playing in all 3 friendlies but he's not featured/been risked in either of the squads for 'competitive' games.

Edited July 23, 2018 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

2 hours ago, Desp said:

it's interesting to see that if/when we get to a point where we are going through a poor run of results, there won't be a lot of sympathy and credit in the bank for Robinson. 

To me, this is absolutely mental. 

I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong in their criticism. Personally, I think we're putting a lot into Tanner's return, and that is a bit of a risk for me. If he breaks down in his recovery, or he doesn't hit the ground running, we've got a lot riding on it. I'd quite like us to; commit to Turnbull in that role, see if we can pick up a WUNDERKID from down south on loan, or go back in time and play Ross MacLean there.

The Sammon signing, as previously said, doesn't arse me at all. If Scott is the guy that we hope he is, he should be able to displace him. Really, I think MacLean and Gordon should've been out January - May last season, but I hope they're magic on loan and come back and take their place.

Still, it's two games in. We struggled past Edinburgh last year and people got themselves all a fluster and the season worked out okay. Coming back to what Desp is saying, I do find the lack of credit in the bank a bit mad. I kind of feel that this is just folk desperate to get the knives out, because we've been competent and capable for almost exactly a year now (December as always, discounted), so there's a bit of a build up. For me, Robinson has been a great appointment, and deserves more credit than he's had.

FWIW, I think we'll be fine. Johnson will take a bit of time to get up to speed, but I think he'll be useful. 

[weemac]

3 hours ago, Swello said:

Lots of things to agree with in the posts above - and it's possible to agree with them without going over the top with negativity or leaping to judgement after 2 semi-competitive games.

Like a lot of others, I could easily have lived with a few less squad players and leaning more on the better emerging U20's players as to my mind, when we've done that over the years, they've stepped up to the mark more often than not. Even if they barely make the grade, One of our Own > English lower league journeyman for lots of reasons. 

I think we all understand that our inability to cope with multiple injuries during the busiest fixture period of the season had a big effect on our final league position (although it certainly wasn't the only factor) but I wonder if prioritising the strengthening of the "12-18" with external signings rather than promoting from within (where we could) will hurt us. I wonder if one genuine quality signing at the expense of 2 or 3 of the 12-18's wouldn't serve us better given the solid first 11 that we have...and it's on exactly that type of calculation that managers enhance or diminish their reputations... 

While I think it's dangerous to treat the Betfred group as an accurate guide, my early feeling for the season is that we will continue to be difficult for the better teams in the league where the onus is not on us to dictate the game but might find it difficult against the poorer teams where we are expected to make the running. 

Robinson stating that he has been improving 12-18 in the squad is the only thing that I have had an issue with his management since he's got the job.

Surely bringing in 2 quality additions for positions 1-11 would therefore have strengthened the bench /fringe players as 2 or 3 of last season's first choice would have been on the periphery.

Now obviously this brings other challenges like man management of players previously stick on's for a starting spot now having to play second fiddle but bringing in 6 guys essentially the same as what we already have worries me a wee bit.

I will trust Robinson on this though as most of his judgement and decisions so far have been fairly spot on

[capt_oats]

Flow in on the SPFL board along with Lawwell and Nelms.

Edited July 23, 2018 by capt_oats

[Desp]

Peter Lawwell must go home every night pissing himself laughing at the absolute seethe he generates.  I have to hand it to him, he's got my respect. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Desp

[Swello]

14 minutes ago, Desp said:

Peter Lawwell must go home every night pissing himself laughing at the absolute seethe he generates.  I have to hand it to him, he's got my respect. 

They should call it "Peter Lawell's SPFL Board" to really get everyone going  

[Radford]

Great to see Alan Burrows elected. Someone who really does know what being a supporter is all about.

[AndyRoss]

I think given our style of play there’s a chance when results are bad, the negativity will be pretty brutal. There were plenty of times last season where the quality was lacking, but I think the majority tend to place more importance on winning games.

Thoughts on Saturday, we were just so pedestrian throughout. I can’t think of many Motherwell teams with the lack of pace that this team has.

The biggest concern for me though was Kipre’s performance. He looked like he was out for a stroll, got caught out numerous times - really hope the media attention hasn’t got to him.

Big week ahead now, after our success in both cup competitions last season, it would be a real disappointment to drop out at the first hurdle.

[one m in Motherwell]

Oh god, the other website thinks we’re condescending.

[Mr. Brightside]

Oh god, the other website thinks we’re condescending.

Good.

[Desp]

45 minutes ago, one m in Motherwell said:

Oh god, the other website thinks we’re condescending.

As long as they know their place, that's fine with me. 

[Busta Nut]

It's 70% same folk

[capt_oats]

Musselburgh Athletic 1 - 3 Motherwell Reserves.

Maskrey for Musselburgh. Broque Watson, Alfredo Ageyman and Kyle MacDonald the scorers for Motherwell. ALFIE FOR THE FIRST TEAM! 

 

[Busta Nut]

Alfredo the man