Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Dosser1886]

11 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

 Shields is useless. 

Harsh, if you want him to run down to Greggs and bring you back steak bake while it's still warm, he's your man.

[Swello]

Celtic played well last night - they looked confident and their movement was different to what we see in any other game in our league. When that happens, the result is academic. Celtic have very few off-days domestically at the moment - and last night was a long way from one.

I think our midfield has been poor the last 3 games - Goss has continued to play well but Slattery has gone off a bit of a cliff - and we can't carry someone in that sort of form and hope to compete with Celtic. Hope he back to something like his best soon as he's an important player for us.

My biggest concern is that we've had two hard games already this week with a reduced squad - I'm not sure what sort of energy levels we'll have on Saturday for arguably the biggest game of the three.

[thisGRAEME]

19 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think our midfield has been poor the last 3 games - Goss has continued to play well but Slattery has gone off a bit of a cliff - and we can't carry someone in that sort of form and hope to compete with Celtic. Hope he back to something like his best soon as he's an important player for us.

You can almost see when Slattery is going off like, his passing the biggest indicator. Slowly descends into either trying to force incredibly difficult passes, or putting passes miles past players or out of play.

The game last night rests on us failing to take chances, again, tbh. McKinstry's the biggest example, of doing the hard yards and winning the ball and being brave then blazing it over, with Celtic heading back up the park to score. Started the second half with a good wee spell of ten minutes, then concede, Spittal dallies on the ball on the edge of Celtic's box with options left and right and... Celtic run up the park and score. 

There isn't a ruthless streak that's needed in a game like that, there rarely has been in my lifetime, I'm not sure how you fix that. I don't think it's an ability issue and it is entirely a mentality issue. 

Kelly last night as well, I dunno if he was reading our posts but hooooo boy.

[Desp]

13 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I think the saddest thing about our record against the Old Firm is in my mind it's effectively a free week now where I just don't care any more. At least in the old days you turned up with the wee buzz of an upset in the air.

On the bright side it makes getting over it a right dawdle, I'd moved on from this before the net stopped moving at the second goal.

 

12 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

After Sunday's showing against a distinctly average Rangers side my expectation for tonight was an absolute drubbing, and lo it came to pass.

These sum up my feelings as well now.  Complete and utter meh.

We need Celtic or Rangers to have a stinker to have any sort of chance against them these days (Celtic at St.Mirren Park a perfect example).  On top of that, we then need to have an absolutely perfect performance from everyone on our side (again, St. Mirren did that a few weeks back).  At this moment in time, I don't have the belief that this Motherwell side are capable of something like that.

No issues with/pressure on Hammell from me.  I think season is all about trying to get through it so if we end up 9th/10th then it's fine with me.  I can see the manager changing up a lot of the squad between now and this time next year.  Let's give him time.  I can see what he's trying to do with the team, but he needs new players and some time to implement it how he wants.  Just a real shame he didn't get that striker he wanted at the end of the summer window.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

13 hours ago, Lex said:

14 losses in a row again Celtic now.
Why do Motherwell fans think their team consistently rolls over and gets their tummy tickled by the Old Firm?
I know budgets etc, but other similarly funded sides have much better records. What’s going wrong at Fir Park? Big team sympathy or something else?

We fixed the pitch.

[thisGRAEME]

3 minutes ago, Desp said:

These sum up my feelings as well now.  Complete and utter meh.

We need Celtic or Rangers to have a stinker to have any sort of chance against them these days (Celtic at St.Mirren Park a perfect example).  On top of that, we then need to have an absolutely perfect performance from everyone on our side (again, St. Mirren did that a few weeks back).  At this moment in time, I don't have the belief that this Motherwell side are capable of something like that.

So, I've kind of had this thought for quite a while, a whisper of a thought, essentially, I thought it when Lasley was assistant, I think it now that Hammell is manager. We've had a core of guys around the club who have, broadly, throughout their career, been successful Motherwell players, playing in successful Motherwell teams, who have never made a step beyond to either beat the OF more than once in a blue moon, or win a trophy, or make that step beyond being 'good'. 

The flipside of this is, you have guys around the squad who are probably a good and calming influence around the place, never too up, never too down, who know whats expected and in the main, will probably deliver it, but are unlikely to do the remarkable.

But we'll never make that step beyond without breaking away from it, IMO. Didn't manage it as players, evidence to date suggests they probably won't do it as a managerial staff either. Ups and downs in that. 

[eliphas]

I suppose, where I am, is that:

 1) It's a lot about expectations and I think most of us looked at the run from Sep through to early November as very difficult. I really didn't expect us to pick up many points in the league and as soon as we got Celtic in the cup that was a major disappointment. They are really head and shoulders above everyone at the moment. So, purely on that I think we are probably where I expected us to be. 

but also...

2) The change in the way we play, a bit more expansive and making more chances, has reset the expectations a wee bit in as much as a number of these difficult games we've seen us miss good chances AND concede poor goals. Compared to Alexander where we really just trudged through gamea. So, I've kind of got an overall lingering feeling also of we could have done a wee bit better in another timeline (one where Hammell isn't landed with Alexander's squad by in large). 

I'm fairly relaxed currently. Decentish points on the board, albeit very tight top to bottom, and Hammell undoubtedly has improved things since he took over.

Hammell hinted at it, I think before or after the Hibs game, but it could be time to change the tactic/way of play a little bit to try and stop the daft goals. 5 games before the World Cup break and I think we should be picking up a couple of wins out of that. 

 

 

 

[Neil86]

13 hours ago, Allroy for Prez said:

He worryingly looks like he is returning to the initial version of himself. 

shock horror, said it before but i'd have been quite happy to see the back of him in the summer.

[Gianfranco]

Saturday seems like a big game again. That’s about the 3rd time I’ve said that this season.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

So, I've kind of had this thought for quite a while, a whisper of a thought, essentially, I thought it when Lasley was assistant, I think it now that Hammell is manager. We've had a core of guys around the club who have, broadly, throughout their career, been successful Motherwell players, playing in successful Motherwell teams, who have never made a step beyond to either beat the OF more than once in a blue moon, or win a trophy, or make that step beyond being 'good'. 

The flipside of this is, you have guys around the squad who are probably a good and calming influence around the place, never too up, never too down, who know whats expected and in the main, will probably deliver it, but are unlikely to do the remarkable.

But we'll never make that step beyond without breaking away from it, IMO. Didn't manage it as players, evidence to date suggests they probably won't do it as a managerial staff either. Ups and downs in that. 

This is an interesting point and one that I kind of subscribe to as well.

I mean, is the gap in standard between us and Rangers any greater now than it was when we had Mickey Weir and Shaun McSkimming on the park and they had Gascoigne and Laudrup? For me, not really.

In that respect it feels like the issue is mentality or culture.

It's possibly confirmation bias but in recent times at least it doesn't seem to be coincidence that we've put up better performances when we've had managers who've come from outwith Scottish football.

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread it took two offside goals for Rangers to get their draws against us under Alexander and we also managed to come back from 2-0 down against them, Robinson's original Thunderdome worked well against Rodgers' Celtic at Fir Park before the wheels came off after SR decided to start trying to play football.

We've spoken about it often on this thread but would we have put the same performances in for the play-off games had McCall still been the manager? Again, the evidence of his consistent rolling over to get his tummy tickled by them suggests not (never beat them in 8 games and had an aggregate of 23-2 against - including the 2-0 loss in the LC while they were on "The Journey").

My formative years were watching McLean's team who could turn up and win semi-regularly against both but then again, this is our 38th consecutive season in the top flight, in that time we've finished in every position from 2nd to 12th (thanks again Falkirk) and as you hint at, while I'm sure everyone at the club wants us to win these games in a professional sense it's also entirely possible for us to have a "successful" season without ever beating either Celtic or Rangers.

It feels like that's a difficult culture to break out of.

Edited October 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[CoF]

4 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

So, I've kind of had this thought for quite a while, a whisper of a thought, essentially, I thought it when Lasley was assistant, I think it now that Hammell is manager. We've had a core of guys around the club who have, broadly, throughout their career, been successful Motherwell players, playing in successful Motherwell teams, who have never made a step beyond to either beat the OF more than once in a blue moon, or win a trophy, or make that step beyond being 'good'. 

The flipside of this is, you have guys around the squad who are probably a good and calming influence around the place, never too up, never too down, who know whats expected and in the main, will probably deliver it, but are unlikely to do the remarkable.

But we'll never make that step beyond without breaking away from it, IMO. Didn't manage it as players, evidence to date suggests they probably won't do it as a managerial staff either. Ups and downs in that. 

I get what you're saying but I'm not sure how much weight can be placed on the lack of cups - I think luck of the draw is a huge part here. I've skived off work for 20 minutes to look at the stats -  We've made 4 cup finals since 2000, and compared to other similar sized  clubs we have St Mirren  with 2, Kilmarnock 3, St Johnstone 3. Some city clubs only marginally better - Aberdeen 5, Hearts 6 and  Hibs out in front with 8. Dundee have made 1, Falkirk 2, Inverness 3. So my point is we're doing okay there. 

In the 29 cup finals since 2000 with Rangers or Celtic not playing each other, they've been beaten twice (Hibs and Kilmarnock). So they get beaten about 7% of the time in cup finals. A shit stat if you meet them in a final and we've met them in all 4 of ours. We'd need to play them another 10 times in a final to beat them once....

Of the 46 finals since 2000, 12 have involved neither Rangers or Celtic and on 6 of those occasions the winner didn't face Rangers or Celtic at any stage. 

Also, look at some of managers to have won a cup - Kenny Shiels, John Collins, Danny Lennon, Derek McInnes, Jim McIntyre, Peter Houston, John Hughes, Tommy Wright..... Alan fucking Stubbs (!). Hardly a list of names who have went on to prove themselves to be exceptional managers. 

I've stared at this stuff too long, maybe I'm spinning stats and our record outwith finals is shite,  but my basic point is, I think, that Hammell, Lasley, Craigan etc can feel unlucky. In a parallel timeline we get a different opponent in one of those finals and all three of them carve their names into MFC history. 

Anyway, I've probably deviated from the core of your point. Back to work. 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by CoF

[eliphas]

For me, it's less to do with culture and more to do with the growing chasm of financial disparity. Games against the old firm are shite for a multitude of reasons and I wish they'd get their wish and f**k off to League 2 down south. 

[Luke92]

Agree with many of the previous comments

Leaving the game last night, I was left wondering 'what's the point' going to games against the Old Firm anymore. I used to be quite dismissive of some of the older tenured fans who didn't turn up for these games but I'm veering towards the same path. Must be getting old!

When I was younger it felt like when we were rank rotten we would still put up a fight when the big two came calling 'FP is a hard place to go etc' It would be good to see statistics on that because it could be my nostalgia to some extent. But aye, I used to buzz off playing the Old Firm at FP even 5-10 years ago but all that is totally gone now.

As much as he looks like a used car salesman I actually agree with a lot of what Lee Johnson said during the week. There is obviously a huge financial gulf but the psycological part of this also plays a big part.

Re Hammell and the team recently, I am encouraged by the change in style but our ability to create nothing in the past few games is a cause for concern.

Another issue for me is the signings we have made. I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say I was shouting from the rooftops about Moult and Aarons when they signed but I think some of the folk that noted their injury record have been proven right. McKinstry was also someone I suggested in the summer, I think we all want to give him the benefit of the doubt but the jury is still out on him.

The funny thing is, we are now running with the same team of players which Alexander had. It's to Hammells credit that he has managed to change the style so quickly but we are really limited for options at the moment.

[JamesP_81]

1 hour ago, eliphas said:

For me, it's less to do with culture and more to do with the growing chasm of financial disparity. Games against the old firm are shite for a multitude of reasons and I wish they'd get their wish and f**k off to League 2 down south. 

This exactly . It's been happening in football as a whole since the early 90s. Up till then it was put down to teams not having the 'ambition' to take on the OF but the money's been so stacked in their favour for so long now that ambition doesn't even come into it , 30 years of continual massive financial disparity has put us way beyond a tipping point.  And just like the universe expanding at an accelerating rate the big European teams are disappearing over the OFs horizon for the exact same reason.  

The games f*cked.  

[RostokMcSpoons]

A thing someone alluded to earlier in the thread - the pitch.   We've had good-ish pitches, and absolute sand-pits but now we've got an excellent pitch, it surely suits the skills of both Celtic and Rangers much more than the ploughed-field aesthetic we've had in the past.

I'm not sure what we can do about the mentality side of things...  you can ignore reality and talk up the chances, or you can face reality and... pray out aloud for them to have an off day.   We've had managers try both things in recent history (the latter much more than the former, admittedly), and still the result is the same.

We need a healthy dose of luck (Absent With Out Leave), a referee and assistants who won't bottle it (unlikely, but maybe VAR does us a favour some day), and a star striker who has the physical strength or guile to score given half a chance.  (KVV ain't that man it seems, and King Louis is posted missing... )

It does piss me off.  I used to really enjoy the OF games on the understanding we'd win once in a blue moon, but now it's almost completely hopeless I have just about given up (and missed out on both the play off games as a consequence, to my eternal shame)

[capt_oats]

The "financial disparity" thing is just such a weak sauce argument. Like, yeah it exists and you obviously can't ignore it but leaning heavily on it is a bit of a cop out IMO. Certainly in our case when we're talking about not having a league win against Rangers in 20 years.

It might stand scrutiny if Killie (a team with as relatively modest resources as us) hadn't had a fairly decent record against both Rangers and Celtic not that long ago while Steve Clarke was their manager. By my count his league record against them was something like P 15 W 6 D 5 L 4.

As I said on the previous page, to me the financial disparity between us and them isn't markedly worse now than it was when Rangers were chucking their money at players like Boli, Laudrup, Gascoigne and the like.

I mean, the £4,300,000 Rangers spent on Gascoigne in 1995 is the equivalent of £78,812,862.70 in today's money. The £2,300,000 they spent on Laudrup comes in at £43,264,441.38.

Edited October 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

I mean here we are 2-0 up at H/T...this isn't a result of "financial disparity" (ironically this is the season we beat them at Hampden).

1-0 up with 3 mins to go...

Edited October 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[ropy]

Off topic but I must apologise to @Casagoldafor my weekly visit to his profile page, more fat fingers than stalker.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Boring answer but imo it's All of the Above. There's a wider trend amongst world football that wealth and good players are being concentrated in a few clubs who dominate their respective leagues to unprecedented levels, we've also recently played a style of football that leaves us quite open against the Old Firm, we've made individual mistakes leading to conceding stupid goals in tight games, been unlucky not to catch them on off days and also suffer from an inferiority complex. I also think if we'd held Rangers to 2 draws at FP instead of Ibrox last season it would stick in people's memories a lot more.

[Handsome_Devil]

We could go round and round in circles for ages discussing the OF. I mean, fair play to St Mirren the other week but that win was 90% Celtic not turning up and 10% them taking advantage. It's the same with Kille's cup win when people referenced it before we played Celtic in 2017/18 - on any other day they'd have been 3-0 down at HT, massive credit to them for taking their chance but the notion they were anything other than luckily in the right place at the right time is madness.

Most of our famous wins over the OF either came when they had their feet up or with comical dollops of luck. The wins in the 2002/3 for example, we essentially got absolutely dicked...the 2-0 at Parkhead in 1997 (I think) was one of the most astonishingly one-sided starts to a game I've ever seen, yet they miss a half-a-dozen chances and get a red card while we score a deflection in between. Suggesting this team lacks something - ability, character, anything - because some previous generations essentially won a raffle is daft.

We're probably a fraction less likely to have things go our way because when in these slumps it's obviously hard to get out. But I don't see what more we could have done yesterday mentally - we tried to be brave and pass it out from the back when we could (a liability), we got bodies up to press when we could etc. McKinstry firing into the stand and all the stray passes - as witnessed by the fact we do it every fucking week - is very much more an ability than character issue for me.