Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, Luke92 said:

Maybe its my expectations about the level of player that I would expect to be first team but I dont see McGinn and Spittal as nailed on starters for us so 4 squad quality players of that calibre doesn't cut it for me.

I'm not going to panic or anything but it would be nice to get a couple of more exciting signings pre-europe

This will sound snarky but it's genuinely not meant to be but what players would cut it? Like, for frame of reference.

Yes, it's up to the recruitment department and that but it'd be interesting to know.

As I said earlier, the one player we've been credibly linked with so far that stood out for me was Davis.

[Desp]

12 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

This will sound snarky but it's genuinely not meant to be but what players would cut it? Like, for frame of reference.

I imagine for a lot of folk, it'll be someone with a foreign sounding name.  Despite it being 2022, and access to every league in the world only being a few clicks away, folk still get caught up with a strange name from a different league.  Signing Sondre Solholm Johansen from Mjondalen is far more exciting than signing Stevie Johnston from Morecambe.

Remember folk were buzzing when we signed Danish international Casper Sloth?  

I've not watched any sort of football (no highlights, YouTube compilations etc) since Scotland got humped in Ireland last month.  It's actually been great.  I think I realised last season that there's just so fucking much of it every week and it's no longer special to watch a game on the telly or live anymore.  I realise for a lot of folk that kicked in about 2008, but bear with me.  Maybe I'm just now a fully fledged grumpy auld c**t.  Looking forward to getting back to Fir Park in a couple of weeks though, the spiritual home of Lanarkshire's grumpy auld c***s.

[capt_oats]

38 minutes ago, Desp said:

I imagine for a lot of folk, it'll be someone with a foreign sounding name.  Despite it being 2022, and access to every league in the world only being a few clicks away, folk still get caught up with a strange name from a different league.  Signing Sondre Solholm Johansen from Mjondalen is far more exciting than signing Stevie Johnston from Morecambe.

Remember folk were buzzing when we signed Danish international Casper Sloth?  

I've not watched any sort of football (no highlights, YouTube compilations etc) since Scotland got humped in Ireland last month.  It's actually been great.  I think I realised last season that there's just so fucking much of it every week and it's no longer special to watch a game on the telly or live anymore.  I realise for a lot of folk that kicked in about 2008, but bear with me.  Maybe I'm just now a fully fledged grumpy auld c**t.  Looking forward to getting back to Fir Park in a couple of weeks though, the spiritual home of Lanarkshire's grumpy auld c***s.

Aye, I think your point the other day about how even the most successful Motherwell sides over the years have been littered with "do a job" type players touched on what I'm getting at.

Over the recent seasons there's been an argument that we shouldn't be recruiting from the lower leagues in England and we should be focusing on the Scottish leagues. I mean, it's expectations but I'm genuinely curious who folk are anticipating us to signing from the SPFL if not your Polworth, Gallagher, O'Donnell, Shields, Spittal or McGinn types.

Even Tony Watt was hardly at an apex in his career when he signed up on a short term deal.

There are folk falling over themselves on Motherwell Twitter wanting us to sign Moult yet at the same time if Alexander was to sign a Not Louis Moult with his sort of injury record over the past 3 years they'd want the manager and recruitment staff chased.

As I say none of that is intended to be obtuse or arguing that we shouldn't have expectations or want to sign *good* players but I'm curious as to exactly what players the reply guys in Burrows mentions think we should be signing when they're voicing their concerns about the lack of signings (despite us have signed 2 and a squad of 22 contracted).

Edited July 6, 2022 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

Just sign Gboly.

He's good. He's exciting. He's known. He's not from Hamilton. 

Ticks literally every box.

[ropy]

I am counting Mahon and to some extent Tierney as a signing for this coming season and would look for at least one player to come through to the match day squad from the young boys, although that may be Johnston.

[Desp]

1 minute ago, ropy said:

I am counting Mahon and to some extent Tierney as a signing for this coming season and would look for at least one player to come through to the match day squad from the young boys, although that may be Johnston.

That's always the aim, and like you say, hopefully Johnston can be one this season.  However, it's going to be very difficult, even more so now, for clubs like us to do it.  Even for the batch that have signed professionally this summer, how many of them will make it? I know some within the club are very excited about this batch, but there'll be some that won't be good enough in 1-2 years time.  If any are, who's to say they won't be picked up by a bigger club?  I noticed Killie lost one of their brightest prospects to Newcastle in the last couple of days. 

It's happening to clubs of our size more and more nowadays. For a few hundred grand (if that) it's worth the gamble for the OF and PL teams in England.  I think the days of players doing 50-100 games before moving on to a big club are just about done.  They'll be picked up well before they turn 18.  For Killie fans, will they ever seen the next Boyd/Naismith/Taylor?  Are we ever going to see the next McFadden/Pearson/Turnbull in our first team?

Even someone like McKinstry, who's a massive 'Well fan, and comes from a family of massive 'Well fans, walked away from Motherwell to go down south.  Not a criticism of the boy at all, as he appears to be doing very well for himself, but it illustrates the point that we've got next to no chance of bringing through another top talent.

 

[Gianfranco]

Supermarv has reappeared on SO. This is not a drill.

[Busta Nut]

He got ITK stuff?

[Kapowzer]

I think the issue with where we are now is many of us have identified where we would like to see a strengthening of the team and prioritised that recruitment based on the season before. My order would have been:

LB, CH, MID, FW

Spittal you could certainly justify, decent season in the Highlands and solid performer at this level and a seemingly adequate replacement for O'Hara. McGinn left a few scratching their heads but the club can't determine when players become available or when they have to make a move. If he signed on deadline day I doubt it would register the way it did in late June.

I'm sure if Flao had the option, then to address the LB as the first signing and then in order would have been preferable, certainly would made dealing with the wahoo's on his Twitter feed easier to palate.

Many have us have called for an injection of quality, an upping of the base standard. Something more measured and deliberate, you'd hope with a smaller number of positions to recruit it wouldn't be the manic shirt filling exercise we've experienced in the past. But despite the high league finish, Euro money and extra in the war chest going into 22/23 it doesn't seem we've yet to touch these funds. Roberts stepping down from Hearts, Donnelly as a 4 year veteran and O'Hara who was by many accounts at the top end of our scale are definitely in excess of the business we've done in weekly salaries alone. Tony came off the payroll in January and we got Efford and Niernnold with that saving.

Maybe we need to recognise is that a player we aspire to will come to us and our league when all other options are exhausted and that process is outwith our control and certainly not in the order we want.

[Ron Aldo]

That's always the aim, and like you say, hopefully Johnston can be one this season.  However, it's going to be very difficult, even more so now, for clubs like us to do it.  Even for the batch that have signed professionally this summer, how many of them will make it? I know some within the club are very excited about this batch, but there'll be some that won't be good enough in 1-2 years time.  If any are, who's to say they won't be picked up by a bigger club?  I noticed Killie lost one of their brightest prospects to Newcastle in the last couple of days. 
It's happening to clubs of our size more and more nowadays. For a few hundred grand (if that) it's worth the gamble for the OF and PL teams in England.  I think the days of players doing 50-100 games before moving on to a big club are just about done.  They'll be picked up well before they turn 18.  For Killie fans, will they ever seen the next Boyd/Naismith/Taylor?  Are we ever going to see the next McFadden/Pearson/Turnbull in our first team?
Even someone like McKinstry, who's a massive 'Well fan, and comes from a family of massive 'Well fans, walked away from Motherwell to go down south.  Not a criticism of the boy at all, as he appears to be doing very well for himself, but it illustrates the point that we've got next to no chance of bringing through another top talent.
 

This is exactly it. Players coming through at Motherwell are more and more likely to be of "Motherwell level" as anyone who shows even the slightest hint of promise will be picked up by a bigger club long before getting anywhere near our first team.

The days of Turnbull, Campbell and, to go back a bit further, Mcfadden and Pearson are probably on the way out as players of that calibre will end up elsewhere before we get to see them. Whether we like it or not the youth players that make it to our first team are going to be along the lines of Maguire and Cornelius. Decent players for our level but unlikely to be getting us 7 figure transfer fees.

[Londonwell]

2 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

This is exactly it. Players coming through at Motherwell are more and more likely to be of "Motherwell level" as anyone who shows even the slightest hint of promise will be picked up by a bigger club long before getting anywhere near our first team.

The days of Turnbull, Campbell and, to go back a bit further, Mcfadden and Pearson are probably on the way out as players of that calibre will end up elsewhere before we get to see them. Whether we like it or not the youth players that make it to our first team are going to be along the lines of Maguire and Cornelius. Decent players for our level but unlikely to be getting us 7 figure transfer fees.

Is this really anymore unlikely than it was in the past? Big clubs have always scouted youth players from smaller clubs.

Is it not the case that the fans are simply more aware of it now than they were in the past? It's not like Turnbull came through in a different footballing age to the one we currently inhibit. He came through in the same footballing climate to the one we're in now, na?

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Londonwell said:

Is this really anymore unlikely than it was in the past? Big clubs have always scouted youth players from smaller clubs.

Is it not the case that the fans are simply more aware of it now than they were in the past? It's not like Turnbull came through in a different footballing age to the one we currently inhibit. He came through in the same footballing climate to the one we're in now, na?

English clubs are signing UK players younger now as I don't think can do it for foreigners anymore, as they need players young to become "homegrown".

You've also now got Rangers/Celtic building second sides to play in the Lowland League stocking up on every single young player in the country in the hope one makes it.

[Gianfranco]

He got ITK stuff?

Says we have 3 trialists coming in at some point and two of them are forwards. Instantly dismissed by our other ITK poster.

[Onthefringes]

44 minutes ago, Gianfranco said:

Says we have 3 trialists coming in at some point and two of them are forwards. Instantly dismissed by our other ITK poster.

Not what was said. We can leave the ITK stuff out also.

We’ve had 2 in, one was patched after 2 days.

[capt_oats]

I think there's a natural process when it comes to the academy stuff.

You hope to be able to keep as many of your best players but in any cycle there will be divergent paths, some develop at different rates from others, some get opportunities quicker than others in both career progression and first team opportunity terms.

On one hand, you've a Turnbull who was a unicorn in both ability and the fact that he was reportedly kb'ing Celtic, Rangers and other clubs on an annual basis from the moment the joined the academy.

The flip of that is a Bailey Rice who's jumped at the offer from Rangers before he even signed pro terms.

Between those extremes you've got your McKinstry, McAlear, Semple - so on and so forth. In McKinstry's case I absolutely can't knock him for backing himself and taking an opportunity to join Leeds and work with Bielsa.

Without wanting to make it a #narrative in developmental terms it'll be interesting to see what happens with both Rice and Lennon Miller given both are Scotland youth internationals from the same group and one jumped ship while the other stayed.

Edited July 6, 2022 by capt_oats

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I actually think the rarest type of academy graduate we tend to see is “Motherwell level”. You could argue that out with our last three testimonial players, we rarely see the kind of player who looks capable of staying at Motherwell for say five seasons as a regular, without teams coming in for them, or failing to make the grade. 

We either get the kind of player who’s too destined for bigger things like Turnbull, Campbell, Murphy etc and you get players who get a bit of a run in the first team before not really cutting the mustard, like Forbes, Carswell, McHugh etc.

I guess time will tell where Cornelius and Maguire fit it to that spectrum. 

As for this season’s recruitment, I’ve said a good few times that I think a smaller squad is better. In the year 2021, Alexander had an outstanding record without changing much. It’s only when he had lots of options he tripped himself up.

I would say, with the exception of perhaps one midfielder and an alternative number 9 to Van Veen that we are totally fine for numbers in each position.

Would I like an upgrade on McGinley or Carroll at left-back? of course. Would I go out on a limb to sign a player not necessarily better than either of them? I’m not so sure.

If the incoming player isn’t a marked upgrade on the options we currently have then I’m happy with things being quiet on the transfer front. I see no point in bringing in also-rans to replace the ones we’ve just got rid of.

[Gianfranco]

Not what was said. We can leave the ITK stuff out also.
We’ve had 2 in, one was patched after 2 days.

You’re more informed than most of us.

I appreciate the wee snippets that we get.

[thisGRAEME]

45 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I actually think the rarest type of academy graduate we tend to see is “Motherwell level”. You could argue that out with our last three testimonial players, we rarely see the kind of player who looks capable of staying at Motherwell for say five seasons as a regular, without teams coming in for them, or failing to make the grade. 

We either get the kind of player who’s too destined for bigger things like Turnbull, Campbell, Murphy etc and you get players who get a bit of a run in the first team before not really cutting the mustard, like Forbes, Carswell, McHugh etc.

I guess time will tell where Cornelius and Maguire fit it to that spectrum. 

As for this season’s recruitment, I’ve said a good few times that I think a smaller squad is better. In the year 2021, Alexander had an outstanding record without changing much. It’s only when he had lots of options he tripped himself up.

I would say, with the exception of perhaps one midfielder and an alternative number 9 to Van Veen that we are totally fine for numbers in each position.

Would I like an upgrade on McGinley or Carroll at left-back? of course. Would I go out on a limb to sign a player not necessarily better than either of them? I’m not so sure.

If the incoming player isn’t a marked upgrade on the options we currently have then I’m happy with things being quiet on the transfer front. I see no point in bringing in also-rans to replace the ones we’ve just got rid of.

Joe, this type of sensible, measured, realistic post simply isn't welcome here. 0/10.

[Onthefringes]

44 minutes ago, Gianfranco said:

You’re more informed than most of us.

I appreciate the wee snippets that we get.

That’s fair enough. Don’t think I get any more than most, just a little more accurate.

[Kapowzer]

3 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Would I like an upgrade on McGinley or Carroll at left-back? of course. Would I go out on a limb to sign a player not necessarily better than either of them? I’m not so sure.

You were getting an upvote till I read this bit and my heart sank.

If we're at a stage where it's felt that we can't source a player better than either then it's time to give up football and take up something else. The bar is pretty low.