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On 24/06/2022 at 21:24, welldaft said:

To answer my own Q. I read he is not 16 until October. So I understand he cannot sign a pro contract before then. 
 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-celtic-transfer-fight-wonderkid-27341846
 

And there you have it….Rangers signing his brother with the hope it entices Bailey may give them the edge. Would be great if we could keep him…but I guess that just became a long shot 🤷‍♂️

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33 minutes ago, welldaft said:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-celtic-transfer-fight-wonderkid-27341846
 

And there you have it….Rangers signing his brother with the hope it entices Bailey may give them the edge. Would be great if we could keep him…but I guess that just became a long shot 🤷‍♂️

How much claim do we have on a boy who hasn’t signed a pro contract?

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12 minutes ago, ropy said:

How much claim do we have on a boy who hasn’t signed a pro contract?

Not much tbh - we'd be due a small development fee (which would be tied to training and support costs during the player's time at the club, rather than any value we might think they are worth) which is based on some complex SFA maths I don't have the energy to interperet right now.

We'd also get solidarity payments from any future transfer fees which would be around 1.5%, as he's been registered in our youth setup for 3+ years since he turned 12.

If the club feels that we're unlikely to convince him to stay, then I think they could agree to transfer his youth registration to another scottish club in exchange for future add-ons or performance related payments I think. Again, the laws there are quite opaque there so unsure if there is an upper limit, and it relies on the other club being decent, which realistically wont happen if either of the ugly sisters are trying to poach him.

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This is starting to feel like the well trodden story of a Da who’s getting tempted by the players lounge and all that goes with it at an OF club.

I wonder what kickbacks red top journo’s give to get all these wee stories out of Murray Park and Lennoxtown. 

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The Rice scenario is something that's been often discussed on here, it is what it is.

What's slightly weird is that the Rangers and Manchester City interest was first mentioned months ago (like, 6 months ago) and it barely registered with Motherwell Twitter but now it's an 'Old Firm tug-of-war' folk are getting worked into a shoot.

Edited by capt_oats
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2 minutes ago, CoF said:

Has it always been the way that we don't see the best of our academy players? 

It's definitely worse now. I suppose that mental TV deal down south means a couple of hundred thousand on a punt isn't really a big deal. 

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11 hours ago, welldaft said:

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-celtic-transfer-fight-wonderkid-27341846
 

And there you have it….Rangers signing his brother with the hope it entices Bailey may give them the edge. Would be great if we could keep him…but I guess that just became a long shot 🤷‍♂️

Only got 2 words to say to the boy “Paul Slane”

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I think unless a young player's family really want him to come through with us (as was reputedly the case with Campbell and Turnbull), then we are at the mercy of our place in the food chain just as we are with senior players. I would imagine that the other side of this is that there will be boys clubs and smaller pro clubs where we have targeted their best prospects...

Edited by Swello
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32 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

It's definitely worse now. I suppose that mental TV deal down south means a couple of hundred thousand on a punt isn't really a big deal. 

I'd not disagree but O'Donnell played 144 games for the club the first time round. Gary McAllister was before my time but Wiki says 59. McClair? Not a Motherwell Youth player but 52 games apparently.

Is that so much different to Campbell's 160 games, Cadden 139, Turnbull 41, Scott 42?

We're definitely more aware of the likes of Rice, McKinstry, McAlear now but as @Swello says above there's a certain reality about it and unless the reply guys are actively advocating chucking 14 and 15 year olds into the first team then it's just a risk of modern fitba'.

Some will choose to progress with us, some will move to other clubs.

We've currently got Cornelius (who was in Hibs academy before ours) and Maguire in the first team. Again, it was barely mentioned at the time but Sam Campbell was a target for both Leeds and Liverpool, he apparently spoke to both and we had reportedly agreed a fee, but he's still at the club and popped up on the bench a couple of times at the tail end of last season.

Edited by capt_oats
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25 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think unless a young player's family really want him to come through with us (as was reputedly the case with Campbell and Turnbull), then we are at the mercy of our place in the food chain just as we are with senior players. I would imagine that the other side of this is that there will be boys clubs and smaller pro clubs where we have targeted their best prospects...

It’s a bit different from us taking a kid from the Miners or Dumbarton than from the same league.

In Motherwell’s defence, we don’t bleet in the press about not being tested domestically (Always after a UEFA pumping or when TV money is front and centre).

I get the youths don’t get the coverage but is Accies kids coming to us a thing?

Edited by Kapowzer
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I think a big difference is how aware we are these days of club stuff out-with the first team, and the access/info we now have. Not all that long ago, if a player didn't make the first team for whatever reason, no-one ever heard of them.

My mum would have disconnected the house phone back in the day if the phone bill showed clubcall spent 5 minutes talking about 14 year old Neil Lennon leaving the club to go back to Ireland because he was homesick. Just find out what's happening with Tommy Coyne and hang up the phone.

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27 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

It’s a bit different from us taking a kid from the Miners or Dumbarton than from the same league.

In Motherwell’s defence, we don’t bleet in the press about not being tested domestically (Always after a UEFA pumping or when TV money is front and centre).

I get the youths don’t get the coverage but is Accies kids coming to us a thing?

I don't think it's completely equivalent - but at our level, there is competition with other clubs to get the best prospects in the 'Shire and the "elite" academy stuff that we are part of is part of commodifying very young players in a way that never really existed in the past at our level. We must be targetting kids that are playing for other teams, whether that is school or boys club (and other "lesser" academies)

The main difference is that we are using a pretty targetted approach with the idea of bringing players to the first team - but the bigger clubs (especially down south) are using a huge drift net to get as many kids possible in the hope that a tiny percentage are good enough to play at the top level. The wastage rate of boys that get lost in that system must be incredible and you get the situation where clearly good players like Slattery have f**k all 1st team experience by their 21st birthday.

Overall, I find the idea that our best young players are off before their 16th birthday to be pretty depressing and it actually poses a threat to our business model as the chances of getting someone playing 50-100 games and being sold on for good money are reduced every time this happens.

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No its not completely equivalent, its night and day. We sit three league places behind them and while we're never going to challenge either for the league I think with our resources we should aspire to put up a better showing in our fixtures against them, avoid drubblings as frequently and nick an odd cup victory once in a blue moon.

I get their recruitment teams are tasked with the same remit as ours and there are some safeguards in place that didn't exist before for the clubs how develop players (the 5% thing) but it could be argued that more are needed so while they may admire they have their hands tied.

You can make a very good argument for McFadden, McCulloch, Turnbull and Campbell staying with us, getting games under their belt and what they went on to. A lesser but still a good one for Cadden and while Scott and Hastie are probably set for life with one move, when they look back at the end of their careers you'd wonder if they advocate staying longer for their career progression over their bank balance. But the rub is the likes of Dom Thomas and Craig Moore.

But then you're in a debate over the potential each of those players had at the same age. Turnbull is definitely a one in 10 years type of player.

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1 hour ago, Swello said:

I don't think it's completely equivalent - but at our level, there is competition with other clubs to get the best prospects in the 'Shire and the "elite" academy stuff that we are part of is part of commodifying very young players in a way that never really existed in the past at our level. We must be targetting kids that are playing for other teams, whether that is school or boys club (and other "lesser" academies)

The main difference is that we are using a pretty targetted approach with the idea of bringing players to the first team - but the bigger clubs (especially down south) are using a huge drift net to get as many kids possible in the hope that a tiny percentage are good enough to play at the top level. The wastage rate of boys that get lost in that system must be incredible and you get the situation where clearly good players like Slattery have f**k all 1st team experience by their 21st birthday.

Overall, I find the idea that our best young players are off before their 16th birthday to be pretty depressing and it actually poses a threat to our business model as the chances of getting someone playing 50-100 games and being sold on for good money are reduced every time this happens.

All good points. From where I am, I Think there is a huge difference in how the club model looks and what it’s like in reality. High percentage of recruitment aligns with that.

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45 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

All good points. From where I am, I Think there is a huge difference in how the club model looks and what it’s like in reality. High percentage of recruitment aligns with that.

I thought you'd have a good insight especially compared the majority of us. I take it what you're referring to is recruiting a mediocre player such as Amaluzor at the expense of one of our home grown getting onto the bench or even an 5 minute cameo. Of course you can't fully tell in July how a new acquisition will pan out over the season but it's the shunting down the pecking order that's the issue here?

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6 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

I thought you'd have a good insight especially compared the majority of us. I take it what you're referring to is recruiting a mediocre player such as Amaluzor at the expense of one of our home grown getting onto the bench or even an 5 minute cameo. Of course you can't fully tell in July how a new acquisition will pan out over the season but it's the shunting down the pecking order that's the issue here?

I don’t think I do. Just personal opinion of the much heralded player pathway that I’m struggling with unless something evolves.

There are many variables, players developing at different stages, cut throat nature of the league & result driven business offers little game time. Lack of competitive development leaves our club amongst others hamstrung. Under 18’s forms the bulk of any reserves so their time is spent in preparation & recovery over being on a training pitch. Could well be a general malaise & for another debate.

I remain to be convinced our Head of Recruitment is offering value for money.

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26 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

There are many variables, players developing at different stages, cut throat nature of the league & result driven business offers little game time. Lack of competitive development leaves our club amongst others hamstrung. Under 18’s forms the bulk of any reserves so their time is spent in preparation & recovery over being on a training pitch. Could well be a general malaise & for another debate.

This is an excellent point. I think it's just branding rather than to be taken literally tbh. Though I think they deserve a little leeway on the youths coming through now, post golden group, Covid chaos etc. If Johnston, Devine, others get a shot this season, Cornelius (and even Maguire) get the benefit of the doubt over average signings to start etc, we're hopefully back on the right track.

I've said before I think there is a bit of a malaise in general at FP right now - likely a combination of factors and likely not even particularly fair but such is life.

But as you say the nature of the league makes blooding youngsters ridiculously difficult, I don't see a massive change on the safety-first approach there. Mentioning Cornelius, he got his cameo at Tannadice towards the end of Robinson's era, made a hideous error which cost us two crucial points and didn't play again that season. There may ofc have been background stuff but to the outside that seemed a bit draconian. On the other hand, with a bawhair between fourth and 10th for months and months last year (and every indication this season will be similar), how many potential points-costing errors do you tolerate playing someone who may, or may not, turn into a big player a season from now?

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