Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Ron Aldo said:

Can't add to anything which has been said already but I'm still heavily pissed off after yesterday. Thought we played okay in the first half and Rangers with 10 men were there for the taking. As usual we completely shat it.

We no doubt have some good players in the squad but also a fair amount of shite. Kelly, Cornelius, Slattery, Woolery and Van Veen can all be very decent players at this level while most of the rest are at least serviceable. Amaluzor is one of many fast but shite wingers we've had, Goss offers nothing apart from the odd decent delivery and Efford just looks plain shite - all 3 should be first out the door in the summer.

Alexander is going nowhere which we need to accept but I hope when the club meet to discuss this season / plan next season someone gets him fucking telt. I have no idea how we went through 2021 being one of the form teams after Alexander arrived to now being far and away the worst with literally no in between. Alexander's tombola team selections have undoubtedly played a part but, even still, the drop off has been alarming and next season could be horrific unless something changes.

This is pretty much where I am.

I'll freely admit that as of the point that big Ricki nodded in that equaliser at Almondvale the season was done for me. Delighted not to be involved in the ongoing relegation shitshow, absolutely zero fucking cares from that point on and not getting bent out of shape about things is very much where I am mentally.

The fact is that regardless of the season 40 points at the split will best case have you Top 6, worst case mean you're pretty much safe from the relegation conversation. So in that respect Alexander and the squad 100% deserve credit for getting there and getting over the line and it showed a very un-Motherwell level of bottle to come back from 2-0 down to do it.

It's also the case that given our position on Boxing Day we absolutely shouldn't have been needing an equaliser in the last 30 seconds of the final game before the split to confirm Top 6. If you want the credit for the first half of the season you have to own what has happened since the winter break.

And that's the main point of contention for me.

Without even going as far as talking about 2021 as a calendar year under him, how have we gone from the team in the first half of the season that while not entirely stylish or exciting was capable of going 2-0 up and just shutting a game down to a side with 1 league win in 14 having conceded the first goal in 12 of them (we've actually conceded first in 15 of 17 in all competitions since the break).

I don't think the board (or Alexander) are daft or blind enough to be looking at the record since the winter break and either ignore it or think it's fine but it's up to them to fix it.

Summer gives the chance for a reset and hopefully bring in a few new bodies to add to the decent ones already in the building (of which there are a few IMO). Which is nice.

Edited April 24, 2022 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

Won't bother repeating the above as my thoughts are largely the same, though I would say I've been expecting him to be put on the carpet by the board/Flow or there have to have been a 'full and frank exchange of views' with the squad for ages and bugger all has happened.

The straw I am clinging to, bizarrely, is the fact that he is so secretive and flexible with the truth, there is absolutely no reason to believe he's even vaguely content with things despite his public comments. Why would he be? You might not rate him as a manager, and might get annoyed by his pre/post-match comments, but from listening to him when calm away from games, he comes across as someone who is thoughtful and, quite obviously, not stupid.

And accordingly he will know that top six or not, he is a major change in form away from getting his jotters in August or September. Regardless of circumstances or being unlucky, that'll be four sackings in four jobs, the longest of which was a shade over two years.

Now maybe some managers are content to be hired, fired, take the pay-off and be hired again, but GA will know his record, boiled down to the facts of it, will make securing a respectable appointment if he crashes out with us shortly incredibly hard.

So once he takes time to review things in peace this summer, there could be a change in approach purely because his own skin will not be saved without it. As I said, straw clutching.

Short-term though, who knows...as much as I joke about firing Nimrod/Mugabi up front for a laugh, I would actually seriously consider bringing Grimshaw in (assuming he's still committed) to midfield or RB. A bit of energy, a bit of buzz might shake things up...it's a desperate last throw of the dice but nothing else has worked.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Handsome_Devil

[ropy]

Game management - that’s what is missing.  He no doubt worked all week on what we would do first half and it wasn’t too bad.  But clearly the situation we faced going into the second half was different so why was our approach, just do the same.

I watched this one on the TV so may have missed some subtle formation change but it seemed to me there were no alterations until much later on.

On a different topic, Kelly was shocking at the first goal.

[Kapowzer]

36 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

It's also the case that given our position on Boxing Day we absolutely shouldn't have been needing an equaliser in the last 30 seconds of the final game before the split to confirm Top 6. If you want the credit for the first half of the season you have to own what has happened since the winter break.

And that's the main point of contention for me.

How have we gone from the team in the first half of the season that while not entirely stylish or exciting was capable of going 2-0 up and just shutting a game down to a side with 1 league win in 14 having conceded the first goal in 12 of them (we've actually conceded first in 15 of 17 in all competitions since the break).

100% this - In 15 games we're given ourselves the target of 2 goals in whatever time remains to get the desired outcome. Talk about hobbling yourself from the outset and doing it week after week.

Throwing defenders up front, constant tinkering, persevering with underperformers while those who do a turn in cameos are bench warming ..... I don't know ..... normally such behaviour is done in desperation when a manager is void of ideas. But this guy doesn't seem to have that, at times it feels like he got a tactics manual for his secret Santa and thought he was smarter than everyone else in the league and ahead of the curve.

You don't play over 833 games in a career and don't see the benefit in a settled team for consistency. So I don't get it. But I do think the players are less likely to be vocal than they were a few months back - authority has been definitely stamped and established.

We also do have a track record of performances and results being all sugar or all shite in calendar years, which doesn't bode well.

As for yesterday, O'Hara and Wollery from the start over Goss and Efford would have been most people's shout, again .... do not get it.

GVB did his homework however after the red card, sit back, let Motherwell come forward, let Lamie clip aimless diagonal balls into the final third, have our 6'4" brick shithouse back line deal with it without breaking a sweat.

Also all the talk on here about Flao reads the boards, he must know what we think or oblivious to things etc. I'd argue that someone who has stood on the sidelines in all but 1 or 2 games in 15 seasons home and away can probably form a pretty good opinion without having to visit SOL and P&B to have their views changed or endorsed by the ramblings of us.

[welldaft]

56 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Won't bother repeating the above as my thoughts are largely the same, though I would say I've been expecting him to be put on the carpet by the board/Flow or there have to have been a 'full and frank exchange of views' with the squad for ages and bugger all has happened.

The straw I am clinging to, bizarrely, is the fact that he is so secretive and flexible with the truth, there is absolutely no reason to believe he's even vaguely content with things despite his public comments. Why would he be? You might not rate him as a manager, and might get annoyed by his pre/post-match comments, but from listening to him when calm away from games, he comes across as someone who is thoughtful and, quite obviously, not stupid.

And accordingly he will know that top six or not, he is a major change in form away from getting his jotters in August or September. Regardless of circumstances or being unlucky, that'll be four sackings in four jobs, the longest of which was a shade over two years.

Now maybe some managers are content to be hired, fired, take the pay-off and be hired again, but GA will know his record, boiled down to the facts of it, will make securing a respectable appointment if he crashes out with us shortly incredibly hard.

So once he takes time to review things in peace this summer, there could be a change in approach purely because his own skin will not be saved without it. As I said, straw clutching.

Short-term though, who knows...as much as I joke about firing Nimrod/Mugabi up front for a laugh, I would actually seriously consider bringing Grimshaw in (assuming he's still committed) to midfield or RB. A bit of energy, a bit of buzz might shake things up...it's a desperate last throw of the dice but nothing else has worked.

Well said. 

I hope this is where Alexander and the club are at. Although I was worried when he bristled at Sky Sports yesterday for asking whether he needs to start winning games. Deflected to we did not or are not getting enough credit for finishing top 6. 

There is still a chance for Europe and it would actually be quite funny if we qualified for Europe and 80% of fans are calling for Alexander head . Make it so…..

In reality big changes are required in the squad. Problem is we have many players under contract including two imposters at LB . So not sure how much can be done to make the impact needed. 

[Phillips455]

I will be going to the final 4 games in any case. The next 2 away to Dundee United and Ross county will effectively decide if we will get anything beyond 6th. I really hope we end with 4 (or more) away wins this season (currently at 2). 

 

There is a team in the squad that can do the job, they did so for the first 20 or so games. Even if its ugly, the work effort is what I want to see. Players playing passes properly, pushing forward and making challenges. Such a shame everytime a team attacks us it always seems we are going to conced.

[one m in Motherwell]

The only slight consolation is that he will get emptied fairly quickly if our start to next season is anything like how we are finishing this one.

Thing is, I actually quite like him. Just stop fannying about with the Tombola approach to team selection and we might have a chance.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Won't bother repeating the above as my thoughts are largely the same, though I would say I've been expecting him to be put on the carpet by the board/Flow or there have to have been a 'full and frank exchange of views' with the squad for ages and bugger all has happened.

Agree with the bulk of that post but on this point, to me given the weirdness of our position (4th on Boxing Day and despite the run of form we've had we were still Top 6 and in with a shout for Europe) I'd have said that the time for any discussion would be the end of the season.

As long as we were clear of the relegation conversation (which we have been) and in with the a shout of Top 6/Europe (which we have been/are) the boat wasn't going to be rocked (IMO).

I find it slightly weird that folk can have looked at Hibs sacking Ross and subsequently employing Maloney, Aberdeen sacking Glass and employing Goodwin along with the run that Robinson's had at St Mirren and be advocating that we jumped two footed into that particular shitshow by sacking Alexander (after he signed a 2 year extension in January).

It may have been @Casagolda who made the point a while back but whatever you think about the run we've been on...it's not been a freefall. Of the 33 rounds of fixtures to the split we were in the Top 6 for 26 of them. We've only lost b2b games once since October, we've just been drawing games that previously we were winning.

I'd think that as soon as the final whistle goes at Parkhead after we've been scudded as part of Celtic's victory lap, that's when there will be a "Dude! What the actual f**k?!" conversation and in fairness to Alexander he's openly said that they'd assess where things stood at the split and at the end of the season.

[Handsome_Devil]

18 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Agree with the bulk of that post but on this point, to me given the weirdness of our position (4th on Boxing Day and despite the run of form we've had we were still Top 6 and in with a shout for Europe) I'd have said that the time for any discussion would be the end of the season.

...

I'd think that as soon as the final whistle goes at Parkhead after we've been scudded as part of Celtic's victory lap, that's when there will be a "Dude! What the actual f**k?!" conversation and in fairness to Alexander he's openly said that they'd assess where things stood at the split and at the end of the season.

Yeah, there's a case for not going mental but given GA himself admitted there was a squad discussion after our poor run in autumn, I'd have thought there'd be another chat to make sure we didn't blow the top six. Perhaps there was ofc and it just wasn't reported, or it was so angry yet ineffective it's just been swept under the carpet.

As for Flow and McMahon, they will know enough not to get involved with team matters directly but they wouldn't be doing their jobs either if they hadn't pointed out to GA that ST time is coming (and has already arrived at some clubs) so getting the finger out pdq is required...rightly or wrongly, the psychology of how you finish a season has as big an impact on the mood going into summer as where you actually end up.

[capt_oats]

12 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Yeah, there's a case for not going mental but given GA himself admitted there was a squad discussion after our poor run in autumn, I'd have thought there'd be another chat to make sure we didn't blow the top six. Perhaps there was ofc and it just wasn't reported, or it was so angry yet ineffective it's just been swept under the carpet.

As for Flow and McMahon, they will know enough not to get involved with team matters directly but they wouldn't be doing their jobs either if they hadn't pointed out to GA that ST time is coming (and has already arrived at some clubs) so getting the finger out pdq is required...rightly or wrongly, the psychology of how you finish a season has as big an impact on the mood going into summer as where you actually end up.

Definitely.

That's why I was always quite happy at the prospect of finishing 7th having won a bunch of games post-split vs 6th and getting scudded.

The first two Robinson seasons are quite good examples of that, the 2nd in particular where we'd been mince in the first half of the season but everyone had a lovely old time watching Gboly, Campbell, Turnbull and Scott in the 4-3 against Dundee or the 3-2 against Livi. An 8th place finishes but people generally have a positive opinion.

This season is most definitely the exception to that given how much of a mess it is in the bottom 6 at the moment.

Good times though...

Edited April 24, 2022 by capt_oats

['WellDel]

7 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Yeah, there's a case for not going mental but given GA himself admitted there was a squad discussion after our poor run in autumn, I'd have thought there'd be another chat to make sure we didn't blow the top six. Perhaps there was ofc and it just wasn't reported, or it was so angry yet ineffective it's just been swept under the carpet.

As for Flow and McMahon, they will know enough not to get involved with team matters directly but they wouldn't be doing their jobs either if they hadn't pointed out to GA that ST time is coming (and has already arrived at some clubs) so getting the finger out pdq is required...rightly or wrongly, the psychology of how you finish a season has as big an impact on the mood going into summer as where you actually end up.

This is it for me. For all we might yet, miraculously, sneak a European place, I'm in no hurry whatsoever to part with a few hundred quid to renew my book if we're to sit through another season of the shite we've been served up this time around. 

[ropy]

As much as I am happy to lambast Alexander and question why he thinks moving Mugabi up front in desperation in 85 minutes is more strategic than deploying Woolery in a considered fashion in the 46th, I have no real interest in emptying him.  He just needs to get better.

He needs to use the experience of the last 12 months, his knowledge of the squad and his now understanding of Scottish football to do things better next year.

As mentioned above changing the manager isn’t always a positive move although Alexander disproves that theory with the impact he had on us.

He met his objectives last year.

I assume he has met his objectives this year.

I have always said that this is his transition year and the benefits will come next season.

I hope that by October I am not regretting this opinion.

[Doctor Manhattan]

That's what I like to see...

[Handsome_Devil]

I assume that was for the comical dive. No idea how he didn't get booked.

Anyway, you need to say that's a cracking day for us. You'd definitely have taken 'no change' if offered at 1159 yesterday.

Whether or not we take advantage of it a different question.

[ropy]

On 12/04/2022 at 10:31, ropy said:

There is a good chance there will be no movement in the table after the first round of fixtures, so it is a four game shoot out with us a point behind.

Then two rounds for us to gather meaningful points, after that we will know if we need anything in the last two games (Hearts).

It’s happening.

Its a shame that our meaningful games are away from home which hasn’t exactly been our forte

[capt_oats]

5 hours ago, ropy said:

As much as I am happy to lambast Alexander and question why he thinks moving Mugabi up front in desperation in 85 minutes is more strategic than deploying Woolery in a considered fashion in the 46th, I have no real interest in emptying him.  He just needs to get better.

He needs to use the experience of the last 12 months, his knowledge of the squad and his now understanding of Scottish football to do things better next year.

As mentioned above changing the manager isn’t always a positive move although Alexander disproves that theory with the impact he had on us.

He met his objectives last year.

I assume he has met his objectives this year.

I have always said that this is his transition year and the benefits will come next season.

I hope that by October I am not regretting this opinion.

Aye.

Agree with a lot of that, I've no interest in getting shot of Alexander I just want him to get better and fix it. He's a perfectly fine manager for this level but seems to be making really hard work of it.

I suppose the difference between the changes mentioned (Ross, Glass etc) and Alexander coming in last season is that Hibs and Aberdeen seemed to make their changes because of hubris and failure to meet "expectations" whereas Alexander came in because Robinson had resigned and we were like, bottom of the league.

As it stands, objectively speaking and despite the relatively poor form Alexander has met his KPIs. Should he have done better from the position he was in? Absolutely but it is what it is.

Who was the last manager we actually sacked for reasons other than being fearful of getting dragged into the relegation conversation? Gannon?

Edited April 24, 2022 by capt_oats

[thisGRAEME]

On 23/04/2022 at 14:32, ZX1886 said:

Alexander

Getting bodied off Tam McManus, a new low this season.

[thisGRAEME]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Who was the last manager we actually sacked for reasons other than being fearful of getting dragged into the relegation conversation? Gannon?

Arguably we sacked Gannon for being a gobshite, tbf.

[rowsdower]

Being a gobshite, poor results, and touting himself to another team (hibs I think?)

[ropy]

4 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Getting bodied off Tam McManus, a new low this season.

Why does he use a picture of Leeann Dempster in his profile