Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[ropy]

4 hours ago, Captain Saintsible said:

Outside the Old Firm and Hearts, is there a more despised club in Scottish football than Motherwell?

Maybe Airdrie, but apart from them 

Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Airdrie then community minded Motherwell in that niche 5th position in the Scottish despising ranking.

[Al B]

Two things that really annoyed me about yesterday, and starting to annoy me in general:

We seem to be starting to dip into this approach of trying to show that "we're harder than you, we won't be bullied and we won't be out-muscled", and all it does is get in the way of us being able to develop any flow to our play. Physical teams do that to other sides who try and play football to stop them getting any momentum, but we actually do it do ourselves.

Then there's this weird decision making thing that flies in the face of that where, when any schoolkid could tell you it's time to either just put your laces through the ball, or simple pass and regroup.....that's when we decide to do wee pirouettes or drag-backs looking for a cute pass. Both Hearts goals yesterday would have resulted in 10 push-ups and a lap of the pitch for Shaw and Goss if they had happened at training at boys club level, let alone the professional game.

There's times in a match where it's appropriate to dig-in and be physical/agricultural, and there's times when you have your chance to play. We seem to have those the wrong way round....trying to play at times when someone needs a dunt or the ball needs blunt-force trauma, and then breaking down our own decent play by trying to win a free kick or trying to be physical.

Oh....and I'm starting to REALLY take a disliking to KVV. He's not even in the same ballpark of how good he thinks he is, and it causes him to continually take the wrong option. He's the kinda guy that tries the 1 in 100 option every single time because from pure luck they come off now and again and he comes across like a superstar and that's how he seems to see himself, but in reality it just means he spends 99% of his match time making an absolute c**t of everything. I genuinely think that for every good thing he's done, 5 good things could have happened if he'd made the right choice. Nailing my colours to this mast now.....and I may be the first....but he's shite. He's capable of the odd spectacular or impressive thing now and again, but so is anyone if they try it enough times. He's shite.

Edit - On a completely different scale obviously, but it reminds me of that Roberto Carlos thing where he's held up as one of the best free-kick takers in history, and has 3 or 4 entries in any highlights reel of the best free-kicks of all time. But the reality is he only scored about 10 in his WHOLE career.....literally huuuuuuundreds of them went into the stands. But no-one's allowed to think he's shite at free-kicks cos he once hit one that went out for a pie before coming back in and beating the keeper. He was absolutely shite at free-kicks.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Al B

[Desp]

I understand the frustration with KvV. Aye, there's a player in there, but there's a reason he's 30 years old and he's spent the last half decade at Scunthorpe & Northampton. 

I think he'll be an OK, steady player at our level for a couple of seasons but once he goes he won't get close to the top 10 strikers of this century. 

To be fair to Kev, I think he could do with some support up alongside him. Will be interesting to see how the American boy gets on. 

[Al B]

31 minutes ago, Desp said:

I understand the frustration with KvV. Aye, there's a player in there, but there's a reason he's 30 years old and he's spent the last half decade at Scunthorpe & Northampton. 

I think he'll be an OK, steady player at our level for a couple of seasons but once he goes he won't get close to the top 10 strikers of this century. 

To be fair to Kev, I think he could do with some support up alongside him. Will be interesting to see how the American boy gets on. 

See, that's been my view for the most part of his time here, but now I reckon that it wouldn't matter as he wouldn't even have the slightest bit of awareness that they were there anyway, as the only thing in his head when he gets the ball is "how can I score from here".

That's great if you're Michael Higdon or Lionel Ainsworth and can find the target from anywhere, or Henrik Ojamma and can actually leave defenders lying on the grass enough times to justify not playing someone in, or even John Sutton who is so good at finding pockets of space that when you get the ball you're only about 6 yards from goal anyway. But KVV doesn't have anything at all that can justify that attitude. He's like a 16 year-old that's still trying to play like he does at 5's.

We're really struggling to click up front because we're trying to find the best way to play him and who/how to play around him. I'm saying it now, and fully accept if this comes back on me (I hope it does!), but he's the reason it isn't, and won't. We will struggle up front until we remove him from the equation completely as he has absolutely no structure or discipline to his game....nothing you can instruct other players to work off consistently as you never know what he's going to do so you can't support him. It won't work. Ditch him and work on finding either an actual strike partnership that work off each other, or a lone striker that you know what he's going to do and therefore it's possible to get up or beyond and support him. Right now, everyone's scared to get up and support him because if they do, he has no intention of using them so makes the wrong choice and loses the ball, and then you have no midfield because they're out of position from supporting him, opposition breaks and we're over-run. I can't see a consistently effective of reliable attack that has him in it.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Al B

[Busta Nut]

I agree with both @Desp and @Al B here.

KVV will certainly do as a decent player for us. 10 goals a season. However he does have almost zero awareness and probably zero interest in passing when he has a shot on. I would like to think that he could be great with a partner. They type of partner he probably needs though is an Ojamaa. Unselfish and lays things on a plate for him.

He's also missed a few point blank sitters anaw.

[Archie McSquackle]

He had a frustrating game yesterday but he was continually being crowded out when he got to their box. As has been said, he needed support but we also have to remember we were away to team that's clear in third place.

Hearts were the better team but I thought we generally did OK and their goals and chances came from our mistakes. I was impressed by Shaw but he sold the jerseys for that second goal and Hearts had certainly latched on to us leaving loads of space on the far side when our full-back tucks in - the amount of deep balls to Halliday in space was ridiculous.

[capt_oats]

16 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I'm getting massive 2019/20 vibes from this season. Sitting high at Christmas, lose a striker or two and be totally miserable afterwards. I'm sure there was even a 0-0 at home to Hibs around this point of the season too.

Hopefully covid spirals out of control again and they call the season with us 4th. 

Had a look at this just there and we're 9 points off where we were in 19/20 after 23 games (and a league placing lower).

Without wanting to be reductive you can pretty much account for a chunk of those 9 points with the Dundee and County games along with St Mirren where we chucked a 2 goal lead and Bobby Madden helped St Mirren on their way to salvaging a point.

Edited January 30, 2022 by capt_oats

[ZX1886]

3 hours ago, Al B said:

We're really struggling to click up front because we're trying to find the best way to play him and who/how to play around him. I'm saying it now, and fully accept if this comes back on me (I hope it does!), but he's the reason it isn't, and won't. We will struggle up front until we remove him from the equation completely as he has absolutely no structure or discipline to his game....

I would maybe agree with this if we had other striking options but currently we don’t and KVV is the best we’ve got so I think we have to build around him. We need to keep him in the middle of the park, the more he gets pushed out on the wing, the worse he plays.
Shields has done nothing in his time here to suggest he’s good enough. Roberts and Woolery can both have good games but (similarly to KVV) rarely show up and so relying on them will just lead to more boring uninventive attacking play.

For me, our best football yesterday came when KVV, Tierney and Slattery were on the ball. On another day we take one of our chances and the outcome of the game completely changes.
We lost yesterday due to our defensive play. Goss (x2) at the first goal and both Sol / Shaw at their second one.

Ideally, Efford turns out be quite the player and exactly what we’ve been missing up top along with Mugabi returning from injury to sort out our defence. Otherwise, we’ll slowly slip down the table.

St Mirren (A) with our abysmal away form then Celtic at home in the league doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that things will change soon.

Edited January 30, 2022 by ZX1886

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I see Chris Cadden shanked a cross so badly yesterday that it went in.

[Casagolda]

I'm not really sure what to think of us at the minute.

Like Graeme, I thought first half was quite promising yesterday. We were doing a good job of pressing Hearts and stopping them from getting any sort of rhythm. They created very few chances and the goal itself was self inflicted. The additions of Slattery, Shaw and Tierney seen us play some good football as well when we landed on it but unfortunately KVV fluffed our two best chances-he really needs to be burying that header.

The latter two sadly both tired 2nd half(probably due to lack of game time at this level) and once the 2nd goal went in you never really felt there was a way back into it for us. I don't think we chucked it or anything but we simply didn't have the quality to break Hearts down and if anything looked more in danger of being picked off again on the break.

On the Van Veen chat- while I'd agree he can be frustrating and hasn't been great since the break he's got 7 league goals this season, the rest of the squad has 10 between them. Mugabi is our current second top scorer and the only other player with more than a single league goal to his name this season.  

No harm to Joe Efford but it's a lot to expect from a guy coming from the Belgian 2nd tier to come in and fix that. I had hoped with a month to find a replacement for Watt we would have something up our sleeve towards the end of the window but sadly I reckon Lamie out and another defender in is about as much as we can expect tomorrow.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Casagolda

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Casagolda said:

No harm to Joe Efford but it's a lot to expect from a guy coming from the Belgian 2nd tier to come in and fix that. I had hoped with a month to find a replacement for Watt we would have something up our sleeve towards the end of the window but sadly I reckon Lamie out and another defender in is about as much as we can expect tomorrow.

By my count this is how the squad looks at the moment (assuming O'Hara is still injured and Lamie's a question mark due to the PCA).

26 players with one injured.

Fwiw: any of the midfield could start IMO so the placement on the depth chart means f**k all.

Tbh, IMO it really depends on who's available tomorrow whether we add. If someone genuinely worthwhile came up I'd say there's probably scope for a forward but otherwise I'd be inclined to agree that it's more likely we'd just run with what we have.

Edited January 30, 2022 by capt_oats

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Most of what I’ve got to say re Van Veen has been covered, but what I will say is that in the first half of the season, in you either had him or Watt on song, but rarely both at once. I’d hoped he would maybe thrive in the main man type role, but obviously hasn’t so far.

It seems that most of the time when you speak positively about Van Veen, he’s done something sublime. It’s rarely for him digging in or even for scoring a tap in, or being at the right place at the right time. He’s had a sitter in him of late too.

One final point I’d make on the front line is that to me, Shields looks to me like his ideal role is foil for a big striker. He’s not neither a number 9, nor a wide player in a 4-3-3. It’s strange we’ve started using a front two here and there and we’ve chosen Roberts ahead of him as the other front man.

[Doctor Manhattan]

48 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

KVV’s had a sitter in him of late too.

I can't be arsed going back and actually counting, but phrases along the lines of "How did Watt miss that?" cropped up fairly regularly on the match threads too, I suppose that's why we could afford them in the first place.

[rowsdower]

As far as missing sitters goes, and this may be anecdotal, Watt missed way more chances than VV, many of which were easier. However, he was way better at bringing others into the game and making it look like a team sport.

[eliphas]

KVV, as someone said, basically seems like he is either sublime or not really involved. Against  Hibs he had our best chances, same as against Hearts but most would say he didn't play that well.

Comparing him to Watt is just daft - totally different player. But if we must compare him this season:

Tony, 10 goals and 4 assists

KVV, 8 goals and 4 assists 

He's very important and I be willing to bet he will outscore Watt and be in double figures this season. Not a mean feat for any Motherwell sticker no matter the year.

Edited January 30, 2022 by eliphas

[well fan for life]

KvV is all sugar or shite. On his day he's outstanding and will win points on his own. When he isn't on his day he's infuriating. 

I mean Decanter missed one of the worst sitters I have ever seen in my life away at St Johnstone but we'd all have him back in a heartbeat I'm sure. 

[Busta Nut]

1 hour ago, Doctor Manhattan said:

I can't be arsed going back and actually counting, but phrases along the lines of "How did Watt miss that?" cropped up fairly regularly on the match threads too, I suppose that's why we could afford them in the first place.

Aye Watt loved a sitter anaw

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

1 hour ago, Doctor Manhattan said:

I can't be arsed going back and actually counting, but phrases along the lines of "How did Watt miss that?" cropped up fairly regularly on the match threads too, I suppose that's why we could afford them in the first place.

Oh aye, Watt was capable of a sitter too, no doubt about it. 

There may be clips to disprove me, but I associate Watt more with the feeble shot sitter and Van Veen with the not hitting the target sitter.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

All three have done us a turn but I find something quite amusing about Alexander coming in and clearly taking an instant dislike to Gallagher, Watt and Lamie.

[ropy]

3 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

All three have done us a turn but I find something quite amusing about Alexander coming in and clearly taking an instant dislike to Gallagher, Watt and Lamie.

It took him a week or two to add Lawless to the list.