Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[thisGRAEME]

Would agree. Having to play in, or watch, Motherwell games feels quite alarming atm.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

That's why I thought three points last night were paramount.

You'd say on paper, the easiest game in that lot is Dundee away and we've already lost up there this season in the cup. You would probably say in that run of seven fixtures, we'll be placed as underdogs in at least five, maybe six of them. 

[ropy]

When was the last time Rangers beat us?

[capt_oats]

18 minutes ago, ropy said:

When was the last time Rangers beat us?

3-1 at Ibrox under Robinson. The 5-5-0 game.

[ropy]

5 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

3-1 at Ibrox under Robinson. The 5-5-0 game.

 

That was also the last time they scored a goal against us that wasn’t offside

[Luke92]

4 hours ago, 'WellDel said:

I get Alexander's gameplan to an extent. Happy enough to concede possession and draw the opposition forward, then limit them to shots from distance and crosses into the box that are nullified by resolute defending and a combative midfield, in turn creating space to break and get our forwards in behind their defence.

I want to like Alexander, but as I alluded to earlier in the week my suspicion is now becoming stronger that fundamentally his tactics are on the whole pretty negative.

I'm not going to throw my toys out because we aren't playing like Man City but last night encapsulated the current feeling within a lot of the support. Basically, there is little lee-way being afforded to Alexander when results don't go our way because the football is so bad.

I think it is clear to anyone watching last night that as well as the players being rubbish in the first half, Alexander is telling them to follow the game plan Del has mentioned above. I'm by no means looking for Ange Ball but us deliberately implementing these tactics against St Mirren at home worries me. Some will say it's worked pretty well for the majority of the season and that's fair enough, I just honestly can't get enthusastic about us playing like that at home to lesser clubs.

It isn't just down the style of play either, the defensive subs, laboured distribution, backwards passing and free kicks getting sent back to the goalkeeper that paints a picture which I don't really like.

[Guest superward]

Interestingly, debatable I know, I was actually quite pleased when he made the first and second tactical changes last night. Showed me at least he will change things. 

He moved to a defensive-ish 4-1-3-2 first which is why Woollery was brought off and O'Hara pit in. Thought that was quite an interesting development as it's (I think) the first time we've seen that? Has to be said though a number of players had no idea what they were doing for the first 5 minutes and it did go some way to letting St. Mirren in. Special shout out to Grimshaw and Watt as it took about 4 shouts from the sideline to get it through to them what they were doing. Grimshaw looked completely lost especially.

Then again, when he brought Carrol on and switches to the 5-3-2 I thought it was a decent attempt at trying to not concede but change the play from narrow to wide. Carrol got a bit of joy with that as did O'Donnell. But by that time Shields and Watt were gubbed.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

3-1 at Ibrox under Robinson. The 5-5-0 game.

Excellent possession stats that day I recall

[ropy]

31 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Excellent possession stats that day I recall

18%, a masterclass

[YassinMoutaouakil]

46 minutes ago, superward said:

Interestingly, debatable I know, I was actually quite pleased when he made the first and second tactical changes last night. Showed me at least he will change things. 

He moved to a defensive-ish 4-1-3-2 first which is why Woollery was brought off and O'Hara pit in. Thought that was quite an interesting development as it's (I think) the first time we've seen that? Has to be said though a number of players had no idea what they were doing for the first 5 minutes and it did go some way to letting St. Mirren in. Special shout out to Grimshaw and Watt as it took about 4 shouts from the sideline to get it through to them what they were doing. Grimshaw looked completely lost especially.

Then again, when he brought Carrol on and switches to the 5-3-2 I thought it was a decent attempt at trying to not concede but change the play from narrow to wide. Carrol got a bit of joy with that as did O'Donnell. But by that time Shields and Watt were gubbed.

Yeah I think if Ojala doesn't get gubbed and we have an extra sub to use on KVV or Roberts the last ~20 minutes might have been easier going.

[ZX1886]

I want to like Alexander, but as I alluded to earlier in the week my suspicion is now becoming stronger that fundamentally his tactics are on the whole pretty negative.
I'm not going to throw my toys out because we aren't playing like Man City but last night encapsulated the current feeling within a lot of the support. Basically, there is little lee-way being afforded to Alexander when results don't go our way because the football is so bad.
I think it is clear to anyone watching last night that as well as the players being rubbish in the first half, Alexander is telling them to follow the game plan Del has mentioned above. I'm by no means looking for Ange Ball but us deliberately implementing these tactics against St Mirren at home worries me. Some will say it's worked pretty well for the majority of the season and that's fair enough, I just honestly can't get enthusastic about us playing like that at home to lesser clubs.
It isn't just down the style of play either, the defensive subs, laboured distribution, backwards passing and free kicks getting sent back to the goalkeeper that paints a picture which I don't really like.

This is where I’m at too.

On one hand you could say that it’s good he has a tactical approach and he’s sticking to it. It’s got us sitting 6th in the table after a full round of fixtures.

However, on the other hand you’ve got to think we need to adapt based on our opposition, which we don’t seem to be doing until late into the game.

The 4-3-3 needs to change for the game on Sunday. The midfield are really struggling to create anything and hold the ball, being completely overrun game after game.

[Kapowzer]

Any criticism in September was generally met with "well we're winning aren't we?", and "I'd rather have 3 points in the bag than be entertained". However those coming back with those replies didn't get the central point which was we were eaking out wins against on paper worse teams despite repeatedly being the poorer team on the day. We told ourselves it was GA playing the percentages and giving teams possession isn't bad if they do nothing with it. I fear many fell into a false sense of security.

In this league it is all about riding luck at times, small margins and your signings. What would have given us an edge is having some additional quality beside Slattery in midfield. Goss was signed as a "he'll do" probably because our main target went elsewhere or stayed where they were.

For all his nonchalance tricks and knack to kill a ball, Van Veen is no Cantona, the last game he contributed was against Aberdeen.

We were always going to hit the buffers hard when we had the run of Rangers, Hearts, Celtic and Dundee United. Between now and Celtic on the 12th there is only one definite game which I think 3 points is a possibility .... Dundee away. 

[Casagolda]

2 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Any criticism in September was generally met with "well we're winning aren't we?", and "I'd rather have 3 points in the bag than be entertained". However those coming back with those replies didn't get the central point which was we were eaking out wins against on paper worse teams despite repeatedly being the poorer team on the day. We told ourselves it was GA playing the percentages and giving teams possession isn't bad if they do nothing with it. I fear many fell into a false sense of security.

Ach I don’t think this is entirely fair or accurate.

I think folk were simply arguing that just because the opposition had 60% possession, didn’t necessarily mean they were the better team- especially when we were mostly keeping them at arms length. Alexander prioritises retaining shape over retaining possession, people seem to struggle to differentiate between that and us being ‘outplayed’. 

Even last night as poor as we were 1st half, did Kelly have a save to make? Possession is pretty useless unless you can actually do something with it and while Curtis Main smashing 9 shots from distance into the Cooper Stand might look bad for us on the stats, it’s absolutely fine by me. 

I actually thought the first 20 mins or so of the 2nd half were quite promising. Goss setting up the 1st goal with a delightful cross. SOD’s being positive getting forward to set up Tony for the pen. Tony himself was on fire. Big Sondre and Shields both missed great headed chances to finish the game. Then Alexander changed shape and it seemed to invite St Mirren back into the match. 

Funny thing is I was at Tannadice and fans were screaming at Alexander for not making a change earlier and we ended up equalising before he made any. Then last night he tries to be pro-active and shut the game down by making a sub and it backfires.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Casagolda

[Kapowzer]

The beauty of a forum is you can scroll back and see it in black and white. Therefore I'll stand by my post.

After 11 games last season under Robinson we were 3 points behind where we are now. While I do think the standard of the league has improved outside Glasgow you'd probably hope for a bit more than that considering we opened the wallet in the summer.

[Guest superward]

Too easy to lump everyone into that one category. It's not as simple as everyone saying that was also blind to to the risks too and 'didnt get it'. Many did.

11 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Any criticism in September was generally met with "well we're winning aren't we?", and "I'd rather have 3 points in the bag than be entertained". However those coming back with those replies didn't get the central point which was we were eaking out wins against on paper worse teams despite repeatedly being the poorer team on the day. We told ourselves it was GA playing the percentages and giving teams possession isn't bad if they do nothing with it

...but you do say 'many', not all, so fair enough.

11 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

I fear many fell into a false sense of security.

I always feared the approach was a bit risky in that it relied on us taking a high % of chances. But I was also simultaneously not panicked about it as I actually quite enjoyed watching it and it was getting the desired results. Also quite enjoyed watching others around me combust because we didn't have the ball for periods. The same people also generally shouting for '4-4-2' and 'get it up the pitch'

A few things have changed over the past 4 games for me since we got the draw with Rangers that have impacted us compared to prior ganes:

- Opposition know exactly how we are going to play as they've plenty of examples now to look over and can guess we won't change. 

- Defensively we've really declined and are making big errors which teams are actually then scoring from.

- Not creating just as many chances as we did (see point 1) and also not converting them to the same high %

In addition to that:

- We played Hearts, Dundee Utd and Celtic. 3 of the top 4 in-form teams in the league. Rangers being the other. 

- We've not been able to play the likes of KVV, Sondre, O'Hara or Donnelly due to injury management.

Given all the above, on Wednesday, I really expected us to beat St Mirren. First half was a nothing half for me - no goalie made a save of any note. We go 2 up and then we saw poor team defending for the first goal and then giving away a penalty, with the retake and all that that went with it. 

There's multiple things that need to improve, changing just the style of play and formation won't solve it for me but I do think it could help alongside other tweaks. 

 

 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Alexander's tactics seem to work when you take your chances and don't concede soft goals.

Aside from the Celtic game where, the penalty claim aside, we created hee haw. We've still been creating the chances. At Tynecastle, Watt and Woolery should do better with their chances. At Tannadice, Siegrist makes two top class saves.

Since the game at Hearts, I think Turnbull's goal is the only one I wouldn't describe as soft.

You have McGinley trying a daft turn inside which leads to Dundee United's winner on Saturday and Mugabi putting our corner out for a shy at the half way line for one of theirs on Wednesday.

You've got Mugabi giving Mulgrew two yards of space to attack that free-kick on Saturday and you've got him giving Brophy twenty yards to create a one-on-one chance on Wednesday night.

We concede a goal from SOD ball-watching at the back post, two weeks on the trot.

We're giving away rash fouls all over the shop.

All of this could be avoided if we screwed the nut.

Edited October 29, 2021 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[well fan for life]

I'll just preface this by saying I am just some jobber that's sitting with a laptop.

The first goal on Wednesday night was the culmination of a few issues that are plaguing us. The midfield don't press to try and force an error, but at the same time McGinley attempts to press the wide player and Goss sort of half presses. For me either everyone presses or everyone drops to defend. You cannot do both. So for the umpteenth time in that game one ball bypasses our midfield and has the opposition bearing down on our defence without challenge. 

Carroll's not perfect but he has to be back in the starting XI. As for the midfield, I don't have a clue how you fix that. Donnelly appears to be completely out of the picture which I don't understand. 

It seemed odd to change tactics after going 2-0 up. For the first time in the game we played the ball on the deck, allowed SOD to push forward instead of hoofing the ball into no mans land up the touchline. Then we revert to type. It sounds like such an arsey thing to say but I'm no sure I'm cut out to watch us attempt to play anti-football against teams that are not any better than us. At least Robinson's thunder dome era was all action pressing of the ball. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by well fan for life

[Phillips455]

The rain has been causing a lot of issues today. Apparently the tunnel was nearly flooded.

Burrows has tweeted the entire incident here:

 

 

[ropy]

35 minutes ago, Phillips455 said:

The rain has been causing a lot of issues today. Apparently the tunnel was nearly flooded.

Burrows has tweeted the entire incident here:

 

 

Pitch still looks good

[Guest superward]

5 hours ago, well fan for life said:

I'll just preface this by saying I am just some jobber that's sitting with a laptop.

The first goal on Wednesday night was the culmination of a few issues that are plaguing us. The midfield don't press to try and force an error, but at the same time McGinley attempts to press the wide player and Goss sort of half presses. For me either everyone presses or everyone drops to defend. You cannot do both. So for the umpteenth time in that game one ball bypasses our midfield and has the opposition bearing down on our defence without challenge. 

Carroll's not perfect but he has to be back in the starting XI. As for the midfield, I don't have a clue how you fix that. Donnelly appears to be completely out of the picture which I don't understand. 

It seemed odd to change tactics after going 2-0 up. For the first time in the game we played the ball on the deck, allowed SOD to push forward instead of hoofing the ball into no mans land up the touchline. Then we revert to type. It sounds like such an arsey thing to say but I'm no sure I'm cut out to watch us attempt to play anti-football against teams that are not any better than us. At least Robinson's thunder dome era was all action pressing of the ball. 

Agree with most of what you say there.

But I didn't see the change as negative really.

The 4-3-3 hadn't been great. Only Watt was really getting any joy up top.  The move to 4-1-3-2 should have in theory have shored us up in that midfield/defensive gap, playing narrow but also letting the left and right backs to push when they could,  whilst also giving us two up front with a couple from midfield to push to support at least . But it took us too long to settle into it and then we conceded 2.