Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[welldaft]

34 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Afaik this is the only time anyone from the club has mentioned it in public, although it is still pretty cryptic as he's definitely stopping short of saying "sell-on" but does seem to suggest we're in line for something at least.

Maybe it the silence was deafening rather than just concerning we'd have got a more definitive answer.

Hopefully that includes a small sum for International recognition / caps. 

I would assume there would be a sell on fee as training compensation only appears to cover up to 23rd birthday.  David is 22 in July. I am sure we would think he would stay at Celtic for at least a couple of years. 

We could end up with £4m+ In time but that is still a steal...

[capt_oats]

23 minutes ago, superward said:

I wonder if this is the 'opportunity to earn' referred to and not a strict sell on. 

We were in between a rock and hard place in a way when we sold given he'd extended (thanks David) but it was clear the move was wanted by both parties and we didn't want to sit it out really and get less in January.

Seems odd we don't directly refer to a sell on in comms at the time. Although that could be per agreement with Celtic I guess 

If there's an NDA in place then it's not that odd there's no direct reference IMO. I think the vague response from Flow that @YassinMoutaouakil's quoted is as far as you could reasonably go for providing assurances that something exists without breaching.

As I say, we saw the value of there being a sell on with the Johnson deal so it'd be a surprise if there wasn't one here. Especially as everyone involved knows his potential (and his ambition to play at EPL level). That said, I'd also be surprised if any sell on % is particularly large - especially if we're due 4% off the top of any future transfers.

FWIW: this was one of my last posts on Steelmen but the reports around the time of the original pre-surgery deal had a sell-on included. Would it be that much of a surprise if this represented the 'opportunity to earn' and the deal that actually went through was just replicated?

 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

11 minutes ago, welldaft said:

Knew this would happen. 

Dont blame the club as David could have injured himself and the £3m would go up in smoke. Plus the player signed another contract to protect the club so we did the right thing so to speak for his benefit. Probably made a promise when he signed the contract. 

But I would ask (if the rumours are true) why he becomes worth £7m now when we supposedly got just over £3m for him. £2.7m if you believe the Sun. I know..... Puzzles me and other Well fans why other clubs did not offer to buy him when Celtic did. Aston Villa could have offered us £5m and saved themselves some money. 

What makes it even more laughable is that the Celtic fans are laughing this out the water demanding at least double that or same fee as they paid for Tierney ! Probably some of the same fans that said he was not worth more than the £3m we were looking for.

 

It's just the market we are in. Which Scottish players have been sold from a provincial club to England for more than we sold Turnbull? There are perhaps others but Craig Gordon is the only one I can think of from the top of my head.

As sad as it may be, a player we sell to Celtic who goes on to be their best player in his first season there's value skyrockets. Had Turnbull stayed at Motherwell this past season and scored double figures again from midfield, his value wouldn't have changed remarkably. This is exactly the reason that sell-ons are important for a club like us.

[Neil86]

Aye, it's just where we are in the food chain, the reality of it is, at 3.5m the only two clubs who fancied it were Celtic and Nowrich, we just can't demand those sort of fees for players, a good season at Celtic and your value doubles, if you do well in Europe add another couple of million on to that.

the same logic applies for all clubs, just at varying levels, Take Van dijk for example, Southampton paid 12m for him, why didn't Liverpool just pay Celtic 30m and they would have saved themselves 40m

[Archie McSquackle]

It's just the market we are in. Which Scottish players have been sold from a provincial club to England for more than we sold Turnbull? There are perhaps others but Craig Gordon is the only one I can think of from the top of my head.
As sad as it may be, a player we sell to Celtic who goes on to be their best player in his first season there's value skyrockets. Had Turnbull stayed at Motherwell this past season and scored double figures again from midfield, his value wouldn't have changed remarkably. This is exactly the reason that sell-ons are important for a club like us.

Did Gordon go from Hearts? If you're including Edinburgh teams as provincial then there's McGinn to Villa but he's the only one I can think of so your point stands. Sell-on clauses are massive for us, particularly if a player moves to England and his value shoots up.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

1 minute ago, Archie McSquackle said:

29 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

It's just the market we are in. Which Scottish players have been sold from a provincial club to England for more than we sold Turnbull? There are perhaps others but Craig Gordon is the only one I can think of from the top of my head.
As sad as it may be, a player we sell to Celtic who goes on to be their best player in his first season there's value skyrockets. Had Turnbull stayed at Motherwell this past season and scored double figures again from midfield, his value wouldn't have changed remarkably. This is exactly the reason that sell-ons are important for a club like us.

Did Gordon go from Hearts? If you're including Edinburgh teams as provincial then there's McGinn to Villa but he's the only one I can think of so your point stands. Sell-on clauses are massive for us, particularly if a player moves to England and his value shoots up.

Yeah he did. McGinn's transfer seems to be listed at £3.1m so it is there or thereabouts. Robertson to Hull is the only other one I can think about around the same ballpark, I think that was just under £3m. Both of them were already Scotland internationals by the time they commanded that fee. Fair enough, Robertson was on the back of one good season, like Turnbull, but McGinn had played over 200 games and had won the Scottish Cup by this point as well.

I still think we got a great deal for Turnbull, especially after a year out with injury and I don't think anyone at the club should have any regrets about how the move played out.

[gannonball]

I think the wages they are also on also plays a part. You cant tell a player or club you think he's worth high 7 figures if you are paying him 1/2 grand a week. When Gordon got sold for the money he did apparently he was on a very healthy wage at Hearts already.

Edited May 21, 2021 by gannonball

['WellDel]

Aye, English teams view us as the same footballing backwater that the fans and media down south do (yesterday's tabloid shite mocking our lack of household names down there being a prime example), and the fees we can command are reflected in that. 

Without being a regular starter at Celtic or Rangers, any player is seen as a punt and will attract bids that the clubs sometimes can't afford to knock back in Scottish footballing monetary terms, but which we all know are far short of their true worth. 

Whereas, not too long ago a few hundred grand was considered a gamble on a player from a provincial Scottish club, with the money awash in the English game nowadays, a few million is probably the modern equivalent. That's why, when it becomes a two way battle between one of the Glasgow sides and a team from the Championship or EPL, I often wonder why they don't just chuck a bit extra at it, considering the obscene price tags and wages some of their own complete jobbers move around for. 

All by the by at the moment though. Turnbull is now one of Celtic's biggest assets and they won't part with him for the money being quoted. 

[Ron Aldo]

Would love to see Turnbull get a big move to Aston Villa. It's the sort of move he should have made in the first place rather than wasting a year at Celtic.

[KirkySuperSub]

7 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Would love to see Turnbull get a big move to Aston Villa. It's the sort of move he should have made in the first place rather than wasting a year at Celtic.

Something about your avatar...every post you make, I read as if McGhee is reading it out aloud...!! 

[dezz]

No chance Celtic are going to part with arguably their best player for £7m. Wait until after he comes off the bench to run the show and bag a goal or two at the Euro's. Celtic can command and 8-figure fee and we'll get a chunky sell on. Nae bother. 

Turnbull and McGinn in the Villa midfield would be quite fun to watch though. 

[Ron Aldo]

Something about your avatar...every post you make, I read as if McGhee is reading it out aloud...!! 

The real Mark Mcghee would never make such comments against his beloved Celtic.

Or would he....?

[welldaft]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

It's just the market we are in. Which Scottish players have been sold from a provincial club to England for more than we sold Turnbull? There are perhaps others but Craig Gordon is the only one I can think of from the top of my head.

As sad as it may be, a player we sell to Celtic who goes on to be their best player in his first season there's value skyrockets. Had Turnbull stayed at Motherwell this past season and scored double figures again from midfield, his value wouldn't have changed remarkably. This is exactly the reason that sell-ons are important for a club like us.

I get all that. Does not make it any the less frustrating.   £7m to Celtic is a decent amount. £7m to Motherwell....

He is the same player. Playing in the same league. Scored less goals for Celtic than he did in his 1st season for us. 

Every man and his dog could see he would go on to be a fantastic player. Well apart from Premiership coaches apparently. 

If I am the Villa chairman I would be saying if this guys is worth over £7m why did we not bid for him less than 12 months ago for £4m . 

Just venting
 

[Gallus Numpty]

9 minutes ago, welldaft said:

He is the same player. Playing in the same league. Scored less goals for Celtic than he did in his 1st season for us. 

Every man and his dog could see he would go on to be a fantastic player. Well apart from Premiership coaches apparently. 

If I am the Villa chairman I would be saying if this guys is worth over £7m why did we not bid for him less than 12 months ago for £4m . 

At best, I guess he's proved his fitness this season following a significant medical procedure, so maybe he's now seen as slightly less of a gamble. But I agree that shouldn't be adding anything like £4m to his value.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Yeah he did. McGinn's transfer seems to be listed at £3.1m so it is there or thereabouts. Robertson to Hull is the only other one I can think about around the same ballpark, I think that was just under £3m. Both of them were already Scotland internationals by the time they commanded that fee. Fair enough, Robertson was on the back of one good season, like Turnbull, but McGinn had played over 200 games and had won the Scottish Cup by this point as well.

I still think we got a great deal for Turnbull, especially after a year out with injury and I don't think anyone at the club should have any regrets about how the move played out.

Aye, depending on which reports you read the McGinn fee seems to fall around £2.75m - £3m so it's squarely in the range it's reported we got for Turnbull (and going by our accounts it sounds about right).

Spoiler

From Companies House:

Tbh, I think in hindsight the Celtic move made absolute sense for him as, once Lennon got over himself and started playing him, he's run the show. That gives him far more leverage on a number of levels if he makes his move to a Villa type club now than if he'd moved from us.

IIRC he spoke after the fact about how his discussion with Norwich went well but they wanted him to start in their u23s (which ironically is where McAlear's ended up without having played a first team game for us) and he didn't fancy going from first team games with us to u23 football with them, even if it was part of a developmental path.

[Mr. Brightside]

I can't believe Motherwell didn't hold out for at least £10 million for Turnbull #burrowsout

[Desp]

The deal for Turnbull was £2.75m from Celtic, with £500k add on when he hits a certain number of appearances (would expect DT to hit that this coming season if he stays injury free). 

We then get 15% of any profit if he moves on from Celtic. I don't see them dealing at £7m, but anything around the £10m mark would be tempting for them. 

We got the absolute maximum for Turnbull when he left, considering what he had left on his deal and that he was on circa £1k a week. The comparison to McKenna & Ferguson at Aberdeen isn't like for like. They are/were both on higher salaries than that and have/had longer on their contracts. Also, Gordon was rumoured to be on £15k a week at Hearts before he left. 

A similar comparison would be Doig at Hibs. Rumours of around £4m for him which is about right as he looks top drawer. Great to see Scottish clubs holding out for big money these days.  Just a shame he's yet another fucking left back for Scotland! 

[ropy]

2 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said:

3 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

It's just the market we are in. Which Scottish players have been sold from a provincial club to England for more than we sold Turnbull? There are perhaps others but Craig Gordon is the only one I can think of from the top of my head.
As sad as it may be, a player we sell to Celtic who goes on to be their best player in his first season there's value skyrockets. Had Turnbull stayed at Motherwell this past season and scored double figures again from midfield, his value wouldn't have changed remarkably. This is exactly the reason that sell-ons are important for a club like us.

Did Gordon go from Hearts? If you're including Edinburgh teams as provincial then there's McGinn to Villa but he's the only one I can think of so your point stands. Sell-on clauses are massive for us, particularly if a player moves to England and his value shoots up.

Unfortunately didn’t get much from Moult and Kipre, or Heneghan.

Edited May 21, 2021 by ropy

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Would be absolute scenes if Turnbull's agent starts ripping the piss out of Celtic again

[ropy]

4 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Afaik this is the only time anyone from the club has mentioned it in public, although it is still pretty cryptic as he's definitely stopping short of saying "sell-on" but does seem to suggest we're in line for something at least.

Maybe it the silence was deafening rather than just concerning we'd have got a more definitive answer.

Need to get the club to crank up the silence.

Was there a bonus for Turnbull leading them to 10 in a row?  We were done.