Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think based on the fact he's playing and playing well he deserves to be in the squad ahead of Jon McLaughlin. When we had the internationals between September - November he had played a lot with McGregor being injured, but having a glance at his stats I think he's only played once since he was last with the squad. Marshall has missed the last few Derby games with a back injury anyway, so there might even be a place for him in the upcoming squad with McLaughlin. Surely Steve Clarke wouldn't pick Scott Bain over him now he's back in the Celtic team...

I've no idea how much money Kelly is on at QPR, but I'd guess he's probably on at least double what Carson is here and he is contracted until 2023. I can't see QPR letting him go without a fee, I can't see him voluntarily taking a wage cut and I can't see us pushing the boat out too much when we have Carson contracted for next season. I don't know if it's fair to dub Carson as injury prone or whatever, the DVT thing was obviously a freak problem and although he didn't play last season, he was on the bench for every single game and wasn't ever injured. This season, I feel like there's every chance we rushed him back too soon to cause the recurrence of the issue. Kelly does shade it for me over Carson, but I don't know if it's worth pushing the boat out and affecting other areas of the team.

[capt_oats]

57 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

Would we be willing to push the boat out to keep Kelly?

Bit like a lot of our January business, it seemed like a short term measure at that time- albeit one that's worked extremely well for both parties. Kelly's obviously been an excellent since signing but if both are fit, is there much difference between him and Carson?

Suppose a lot will depend on how much we feel we can actually rely on Carson. Due to illness, injuries and the form of Gillespie- he's only actually managed more than 25 games once during the last 5 seasons for us and Hartlepool. I can't imagine he'd be happy to spend another season warming the bench, nor would it be financially viable for us to have him do so.

Think I'm right in saying that- Carson, Morrison, Grimshaw, Lamie, McGinley, Carroll, Donnelly, Maguire, O'Hara, Lawless and Watt are the ones signed up for next season.

As things stand, I'd like to keep Campbell, Gallagher, O'Donnell and Cole. I think the first 3 will almost certainly all be away though and the latter's form since Alexander's arrival is making it increasingly unlikely he'll stay with each goal he scores. I've been impressed with Crawford and Roberts of late but I'm not sure I'd be willing to commit to either long term just yet.

The rest, Long and Polworth included, can pretty much get fired straight into the sea.

I think Kelly and QPR are caught between a rock and a hard place a bit. He's what? Their 3rd choice 'keeper? He wants to play but he's got another 2 years or something on his deal which I can't imagine either party would want to write off but I'm not sure they'll have many clubs wanting to pay cash money in the current climate. I suppose that may change if he makes the Euros squad ahead of McCrorie and McLaughlin - and there's no reason why he couldn't as everyone's already highlighted.

I can't imagine signing him on a permanent is remotely an option at the moment or QPR are planning on freeing him but another loan may suit him and QPR (and us if we're only chipping in toward his wage).

We're in a weird place with Carson as well. He's got another year with us after this but as you say with his DVT, Gillespie's form and this new injury that we possibly aggravated by rushing him back he's barely played. Rightly or wrongly there's probably going to be a question mark over his fitness now. I'll be honest and say I'd be much more comfortable going into next season with Kelly and Carson as our options than Carson and a random  +1 like Fox or Chapman.

Also, I'd guess Robinson was a big part of Carson extending his deal so maybe the change of manager impacts that a bit.

I've pretty much written off O'Donnell, Gallagher and Campbell for next season (even McMahon alluded to it being difficult for us to keep Campbell at the AGM). We kb'd Millwall for Campbell in January I'd imagine that would be on the promise that he can walk away for the cost of his development fee come summer if he wants, we're not going to stand in his way. We've got more than 150 games out him and he's been pretty integral to every iteration of our team in the seasons since he's been a member of the first team. 

I agree about Crawford - he's been good and I'd happily have him stick around the squad but I wouldn't be planning on building our midfield around him like. Roberts is such a small sample size it's difficult to tell either way and there's definitely a vibe of someone who's turned up on loan but wouldn't necessarily be someone who'd work out long term but it's fair to say he's not the version of a player Hearts fans thought we were getting.

 I'm maybe being naive about Cole but when you look at his career to date this is probably the most prolific he's been - he's clearly shown enough all round ability to suggest that this isn't necessarily a Hastie/Main style 'purple patch' but rather a manager finally being able to get the best out of him. He's been consistently pretty good for us but without many goals.

Whether that counts for anything or whether scouts might look at the rest of his career as being illustrative compared to 3 or 4 months at Motherwell recently IDK.

Spoiler

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by capt_oats

[Casagolda]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

 I'm maybe being naive about Cole but when you look at his career to date this is probably the most prolific he's been - he's clearly shown enough all round ability to suggest that this isn't necessarily a Hastie/Main style 'purple patch' but rather a manager finally being able to get the best out of him. He's been consistently pretty good for us but without many goals.

Whether that counts for anything or whether scouts might look at the rest of his career as being illustrative compared to 3 or 4 months at Motherwell recently IDK.

I think Alexander alluded to this at the weekend- 

"He’s a good striker. I think we’ve got other good strikers and other good players in the squad but – I think I said yesterday – we always have a way of treating people and I think he’s responded well to it. I don’t know how he’s been treated in the past, I can’t really put my finger on it...  but we try to keep round pegs in round holes and I think Coley’s an out and out striker."

He only managed 5 goals in 31 games under Robinson and his anywhere across the front 3 schtick. Since Alexander started playing him as an actual striker, his numbers have been sensational- 7 goals in 12 games so far as well as chipping in with 3 assists. 

Fair play to Alexander anyway, purple patch or otherwise. Folk were screaming in January for us to bring in a 'goal scorer', yet it's hard to imagine anyone we could have brought in having the level of impact Cole has had in recent months. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

40 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

He only managed 5 goals in 31 games under Robinson and his anywhere across the front 3 schtick. Since Alexander started playing him as an actual striker, his numbers have been sensational- 7 goals in 12 games so far as well as chipping in with 3 assists. 

To add to that, if you look at his stats from last season (I know the position data might not be 100% accurate), he was started as the central striker five times and scored in three of them. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

f**k me we won a lot last season. I forgot we basically didn't draw any games either.

Edited March 9, 2021 by YassinMoutaouakil

[Gianfranco]

So last season we didn’t do draws and this season we don’t do equalisers. What the f**k are we not going to do next season?

[Swello]

1 hour ago, Gianfranco said:

So last season we didn’t do draws and this season we don’t do equalisers. What the f**k are we not going to do next season?

I'm hoping for "something uncontroversial that doesn't risk being misunderstood and have me labelled as an All Lives Matter gammon arsehole"

Edited March 9, 2021 by Swello
Knee

[Desp]

28 minutes ago, Swello said:

I'm hoping for "Knee"

When I first read that I thought you'd decided to go all Gammon Swello, All Lives Matter on us there. Now I realise it's to do with the never ending list of "Knee" injuries quoted on the official site.

Carry on! 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

50 minutes ago, Desp said:

When I first read that I thought you'd decided to go all Gammon Swello, All Lives Matter on us there. Now I realise it's to do with the never ending list of "Knee" injuries quoted on the official site.

Carry on! 

Thought the exact same

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Desp said:

When I first read that I thought you'd decided to go all Gammon Swello, All Lives Matter on us there. Now I realise it's to do with the never ending list of "Knee" injuries quoted on the official site.

Carry on! 

 

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Thought the exact same

No idea what you're on about 

Edited March 9, 2021 by Swello

[capt_oats]

7 hours ago, Casagolda said:

I think Alexander alluded to this at the weekend- 

"He’s a good striker. I think we’ve got other good strikers and other good players in the squad but – I think I said yesterday – we always have a way of treating people and I think he’s responded well to it. I don’t know how he’s been treated in the past, I can’t really put my finger on it...  but we try to keep round pegs in round holes and I think Coley’s an out and out striker."

He only managed 5 goals in 31 games under Robinson and his anywhere across the front 3 schtick. Since Alexander started playing him as an actual striker, his numbers have been sensational- 7 goals in 12 games so far as well as chipping in with 3 assists. 

Fair play to Alexander anyway, purple patch or otherwise. Folk were screaming in January for us to bring in a 'goal scorer', yet it's hard to imagine anyone we could have brought in having the level of impact Cole has had in recent months. 

If Alexander's policy is going to be 'keep round pegs in round holes' then that's something I can absolutely get on board with and if he's looking to get goals out his centre forward then absolutely sign me up. It's difficult to have too much of a moan when you look at how Robinson's side did in the tail end of 18/19 and the bulk of 19/20 but it'd be nice to revert to having a #9 who scores goals again rather than the 'anywhere across the front 3' patter.

Tbh, I know people were freaking out about the January window but on reflection it genuinely seems to have been a bit of a lucky dip and Alexander being able to get a tune out of players who he already had in the building has kind of balanced things out a bit.

If he's got a clear idea of what he's looking for, and his tweaks to the shape to get more out of Watt and Cole along with the way Roberts has dropped in suggests that, then I'm a bit less anxious about the impending summer rebuild.

[Swami]

Imagine Liam Kelly gets a cap before Zander Clark. Tommy Wright will burn Fir Park down. 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

21 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I think Kelly and QPR are caught between a rock and a hard place a bit. He's what? Their 3rd choice 'keeper? He wants to play but he's got another 2 years or something on his deal which I can't imagine either party would want to write off but I'm not sure they'll have many clubs wanting to pay cash money in the current climate. I suppose that may change if he makes the Euros squad ahead of McCrorie and McLaughlin - and there's no reason why he couldn't as everyone's already highlighted.

I can't imagine signing him on a permanent is remotely an option at the moment or QPR are planning on freeing him but another loan may suit him and QPR (and us if we're only chipping in toward his wage).

We're in a weird place with Carson as well. He's got another year with us after this but as you say with his DVT, Gillespie's form and this new injury that we possibly aggravated by rushing him back he's barely played. Rightly or wrongly there's probably going to be a question mark over his fitness now. I'll be honest and say I'd be much more comfortable going into next season with Kelly and Carson as our options than Carson and a random  +1 like Fox or Chapman.

Also, I'd guess Robinson was a big part of Carson extending his deal so maybe the change of manager impacts that a bit.

I've pretty much written off O'Donnell, Gallagher and Campbell for next season (even McMahon alluded to it being difficult for us to keep Campbell at the AGM). We kb'd Millwall for Campbell in January I'd imagine that would be on the promise that he can walk away for the cost of his development fee come summer if he wants, we're not going to stand in his way. We've got more than 150 games out him and he's been pretty integral to every iteration of our team in the seasons since he's been a member of the first team. 

I agree about Crawford - he's been good and I'd happily have him stick around the squad but I wouldn't be planning on building our midfield around him like. Roberts is such a small sample size it's difficult to tell either way and there's definitely a vibe of someone who's turned up on loan but wouldn't necessarily be someone who'd work out long term but it's fair to say he's not the version of a player Hearts fans thought we were getting.

 I'm maybe being naive about Cole but when you look at his career to date this is probably the most prolific he's been - he's clearly shown enough all round ability to suggest that this isn't necessarily a Hastie/Main style 'purple patch' but rather a manager finally being able to get the best out of him. He's been consistently pretty good for us but without many goals.

Whether that counts for anything or whether scouts might look at the rest of his career as being illustrative compared to 3 or 4 months at Motherwell recently IDK.

I got the impression that Kelly was their 2nd choice 'keeper and they recalled the boy who was at Dundee to be second choice as Kelly wanted loaned out to play. Either way, I think it's unrealistic that they'll want to loan him out to us again. I'd imagine he'd probably be on around 5k a week in the Championship? We would probably be paying 1/3 of his wages at best.

I think Campbell and Gallagher will definitely be off, but wonder if there's a chance O'Donnell might still be here. I guess with Cole it could down to wanting to establish himself for the sake of his career. Staying with us next season and hitting double figures again could earn him a properly decent move, but if he just takes the best deal on offer just now to join his 9th club by 26, it probably won't be long before he's at his 10th.

If Crawford and Roberts keep up their form between now and the end of the season, I would be open to keeping both but the rest of the out of contract players I wouldn't be heartbroken to see departing.

Edited March 10, 2021 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[capt_oats]

46 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I got the impression that Kelly was their 2nd choice 'keeper and they recalled the boy who was at Dundee to be second choice as Kelly wanted loaned out to play. Either way, I think it's unrealistic that they'll want to loan him out to us again. I'd imagine he'd probably be on around 5k a week in the Championship? We would probably be paying 1/3 of his wages at both.

I think Campbell and Gallagher will definitely be off, but wonder if there's a chance O'Donnell might still be here. I guess with Cole it could down to wanting to establish himself for the sake of his career. Staying with us next season and hitting double figures again could earn him a properly decent move, but if he just takes the best deal on offer just now to join his 9th club by 26, it probably won't be long before he's at his 10th.

If Crawford and Roberts keep up their form between now and the end of the season, I would be open to keeping both but the rest of the out of contract players I wouldn't be heartbroken to see departing.

Aye. That's largely where I am with Cole as well. I mean, if he goes for a better offer then absolutely no judgement from me. There's an argument that the longer game would be getting a genuinely good season under his belt and then seeing what's on offer. His last double figures season was 17/18 with Fleetwood.

Going by Alexander's chat he wants to run with a smaller squad which shouldn't be a shock to anyone. It's largely been circumstance that's led to us having as many on the books as we do at the moment. 22-24 players sounds about right. Officially we currently have 34 first team players listed.

So you're trimming that by 10 straight off the bat.

With that in mind you probably write off most of the January numbers as needing replaced but realistically you're looking at us having to definitely replace Gallagher, Campbell, Polworth and Long with players of at least equal ability. Cole, SOD and Kelly are probably the ones who may be up in the air with Kelly's situation being complicated a bit further by Carson.

Contracted:
Carson, Morrison, Grimshaw, Carroll, Lamie, McGinley, O'Hara, Maguire, Donnelly, Lawleff, Watt = 11

Out of contract:
Fox, Chapman, Mugabi, Dunne, Gallagher, O'Donnell, Campbell, Crawford, Polworth, Semple, Cornelius, Foley, Long, Seedorf, Robinson, MacIver, Cole = 17

Loan expires:
Kelly, Nolan, Magloire, Hastie, Smith, Roberts = 6

Incidentally, I see we lost 3-1 to Hearts in bounce game. Alexander had alluded to us playing a few of these to involve players who hadn't been getting minutes. The article doesn't list our team but given our injury situation I doubt we'd be risking any of our regular starting XI or the couple of subs who seem to be trusted at the moment.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by capt_oats

[welldaft]

Being utterly brutal the following are the players I would like to see next season (omitting loan players) 

Gallacher, SOD, Cole, Campbell, Carson, OHara, Carroll, Lawless and Watt.

So only 9 players and given the 1st 4 names are likely to be away that leaves 5

That means I am not overly bothered on Mugabi, Crawford, Donnelly, Lamie, Polworth, McGinley and Maguire. Harsh I know but if any of those players stay on then I hope they are for injury cover. 

I like Donnelly but an average of 10 games a season (over 3 seasons) is no use. I suspect however Maguire and Lamie (under contract) will remain and Mugabi and Crawford will be offered a deal. 

As for Dunne I expect he will still be on the payroll in 2061. 

[Antiochas III]

You want to keep Lawless who is a complete non-factor but let Crawford walk?  Hell even replace Crawford with Lamie and the amazement is the same...  

[welldaft]

38 minutes ago, Antiochas III said:

You want to keep Lawless who is a complete non-factor but let Crawford walk?  Hell even replace Crawford with Lamie and the amazement is the same...  

All about opinions.

FWIW Crawford has stepped up the more games he has had and has done a better job than I think many were expecting. Given he could not get a game for Livi.

I may b wrong but I fully expect that in time Lawless will become a key player for us. His injury has meant he has not been given the opportunity. Time will tell..

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Crawford was possibly one of the most uninspiring signings I can remember - a benchwarmer from Livingston on loan coming in as the best player the club has developed in years goes out - but I think he's done reasonably well. I feel there's been a few occasions where he's been overpowered physically, but generally he's done a decent job. I would keep an eye on how he does between now and the end of the season. If he does well, I would be happy enough with him getting a new deal, but equally I wouldn't be heartbroken if he didn't get one.

I guess it depends how much of a clean slate Alexander actually wants in the summer - part of me also wonders if all the players under contract will still be here next as well as speculating over the ones who are out of contract. I don't imagine Nathan McGinley particularly considers this a move that has worked out and I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted out and people have differing opinions on Grimmy as a first choice right-back and if we have Johnston coming through, it might be overkill to have him as a deputy. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[capt_oats]

I'd be surprised if Crawford wasn't offered an extra year tbh.

He's started most of Alexander's 12 games and I don't think it's a stretch to say he's been a better option in midfield than O'Hara. That's not to say I'd be building my midfield around him but from looking at the teams Alexander has been putting out it's pretty clear who he 'trusts' and who he doesn't - I'd say Crawford's the former at the moment.

Crawford's made 17 league appearances for us this season - 10 of them have been starts in Alexander's 12 games and interestingly he was an unused sub on the bench for the Accies game (of his 5 starts under Robinson we only lost 2, didn't win any but we drew with St Johnstone, Aberdeen & United).

@crazylegsjoe_mfc's 'clean slate' point is a good one. While there's clearly going to be a massive churn in the summer it's probably counter-productive in the current climate to be cutting loose players who could 'do a job' with no guarantee that those you bring in are going to offer much more - especially when it's fairly obvious that we're going to be losing a raft of 'key' players.

I'm also in agreement that there's probably a question mark over a couple of the contracted players like McGinley who I think has shown in fits and starts that he's a useful player (specifically his appearance against Hibs) but circumstances outside anyone's control seem to have made this a bit of a tough move for him.

[Marinello]

13 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I'd be surprised if Crawford wasn't offered an extra year tbh.

He's started most of Alexander's 12 games and I don't think it's a stretch to say he's been a better option in midfield than O'Hara. That's not to say I'd be building my midfield around him but from looking at the teams Alexander has been putting out it's pretty clear who he 'trusts' and who he doesn't - I'd say Crawford's the former at the moment.

Crawford's made 17 league appearances for us this season - 10 of them have been starts in Alexander's 12 games and interestingly he was an unused sub on the bench for the Accies game (of his 5 starts under Robinson we only lost 2, didn't win any but we drew with St Johnstone, Aberdeen & United).

@crazylegsjoe_mfc's 'clean slate' point is a good one. While there's clearly going to be a massive churn in the summer it's probably counter-productive in the current climate to be cutting loose players who could 'do a job' with no guarantee that those you bring in are going to offer much more - especially when it's fairly obvious that we're going to be losing a raft of 'key' players.

I'm also in agreement that there's probably a question mark over a couple of the contracted players like McGinley who I think has shown in fits and starts that he's a useful player (specifically his appearance against Hibs) but circumstances outside anyone's control seem to have made this a bit of a tough move for him.

Living in Livi and often speaking to Martindale it's interesting that he says Crawford was very unlucky at Livi because he was replaced by the slightly more effective ex Hearts player Holt who impressed on a trial. Martindale was nevertheless full of praise for Crawford saying his only fault was that he tended to " chase the game too much"  rather than being patient.

Meanwhile, Livi fans without exception feel Crawford was never given a chance at Livi. They wish him well at FP.

As an aside Martindale was less praiseworthy of Lawless believing that his best days were behind him and that Alan Forrest was the better of the 2.