Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[YassinMoutaouakil]

This season seems to have become a cycle of wins vs Dundee and St Mirren, occasional unpredictable performances out of nowhere against the bigger sides, and dismal 1-0 losses every other week. Reckon we'll do enough to keep our heads above water by May but f**k me is it going to be repetitive. 

Maybe we'll get a cup run.

[well fan for life]

Lads. I’m starting to think, and correct me if I’m wrong here, that we’re not very good at fitba.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

This season seems to have become a cycle of wins vs Dundee and St Mirren, occasional unpredictable performances out of nowhere against the bigger sides, and dismal 1-0 losses every other week. Reckon we'll do enough to keep our heads above water by May but f**k me is it going to be repetitive. 

Maybe we'll get a cup run.

It kind of feels like we're relying on Accies, St Mirren and Dundee continuing to be shite. Which isn't ideal.

It seemed clear a while ago that we're really playing for 9th unless the wheels totally come off at Livi (which seems unlikely at the moment) and even then gaining 10 points on them (or 9 and 8 on Hibs and Aberdeen) seems improbable.

We've not beaten Hearts at Tynecastle since they came back up and Robinson's actually the only of our managers in that time to even take a point (last minute goal or not, it's still a point more than Baraclough or McGhee managed). In itself a 1-0 loss at Tynecastle with a poor performance is pretty much ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

12/09/15 - Hearts 2 - 0 Motherwell (Baraclough)
16/01/16 - Hearts 6 - 0 Motherwell (McGhee)
26/11/16 - Hearts 3 - 0 Motherwell (McGhee)
09/12/17 - Hearts 1 - 0 Motherwell (Robinson)
27/01/18 - Hearts 1 - 1 Motherwell (Robinson)
26/09/18 - Hearts 4 - 2 Motherwell (LC QF) (Robinson)
08/12/18 - Hearts 1 - 0 Motherwell (Robinson)

Our form in the last 6 is WLWLXL which is 7th in the form table. We've largely fucked it so far this season and there's not that much to buy into which is a shame given the positivity off the back of the Cup runs and a largely creditable league position. Who knows, maybe Robinson will be able to pull something out the bag in terms of signings in January that might give us a bit of impetus as right now it seems pretty fucking flat.

As it stands though we're just limping through to January hoping the teams below us keep losing and we can pick up a couple of results here or there.

On that point, I noticed that of our first team squad not listed as injured that was Frear and ATS not in the match-day squad and Scott preferred to Newell on the bench as well. Would I be reading too much into that given Robinson saying his plan was "to move some of the squad players out"?

Edited December 9, 2018 by capt_oats

[Gianfranco]

I don’t think many people would complain if the three of them were offski.

[Radford]

I don't see the benefits of a colts team to Motherwell. There surely won't be fluid movement between squads, i.e. you'll have to name a squad for August to January, then January to May, and will Motherwell have a big enough squad to do that? And a club like Motherwell who rely on promoting, showcasing and selling young players will surely be frustrated if they have guys doing well and can't use them in the first team? 

Plus the whole idea is rotten and geared towards benefiting two clubs ahead of anything else. They will stockpile the best young players in the country. I'd be surprised and disappointed if AB didn't see that. 

[Swello]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

I don't see the benefits of a colts team to Motherwell. There surely won't be fluid movement between squads, i.e. you'll have to name a squad for August to January, then January to May, and will Motherwell have a big enough squad to do that? And a club like Motherwell who rely on promoting, showcasing and selling young players will surely be frustrated if they have guys doing well and can't use them in the first team? 

Plus the whole idea is rotten and geared towards benefiting two clubs ahead of anything else. They will stockpile the best young players in the country. I'd be surprised and disappointed if AB didn't see that. 

I think that playing against mens teams in the Irn Bru cup has turned their head a bit - and to be fair, I can see that more competitive games would let young players experience something more akin to first team football. My main problem is that with squads locked in as you say, we lose the flexibility to bring players in when we are struggling with injuries, etc and it might mean that we need to run with a bigger squad overall, diluting the quality even further than it is now.

Also, acting as the OF's little helpers in this gives me the boke quite honestly.

[RandomGuy.]

9 minutes ago, Swello said:

I think that playing against mens teams in the Irn Bru cup has turned their head a bit - and to be fair, I can see that more competitive games would let young players experience something more akin to first team football. My main problem is that with squads locked in as you say, we lose the flexibility to bring players in when we are struggling with injuries, etc and it might mean that we need to run with a bigger squad overall, diluting the quality even further than it is now.

Also, acting as the OF's little helpers in this gives me the boke quite honestly.

And what happens if you get relegated? Or decide your youth development system is costing too much?

Motherwell are only being invited because it means the Old Firm can claim it's not just them who'll be benefiting. In this situation you're little other than a third wheel being dragged along to watch two other folk pump each other. 

I'd lose a lot of respect for Motherwell if they agreed to that. 

[alr]

Allowing 'colts' teams in the Challenge Cup is a travesty. The idea of a lower tier of colts mixed in with established clubs' first teams can get in the sea, whether Motherwell would benefit or not.

[Casagolda]

17 hours ago, Swello said:

I'm not in the Robinson Out!!! camp that gets a semi after every defeat  but in his post match interview he said that we showed "quality" today - and that really beggars belief as we *really* didn't....

Firmly on board with this.

Typified by the fact that even Bigi when he came on ended up putting the ball straight out the park 3 or 4 times including somehow straight from an (out-swinging)corner. There was plenty of effort and we were on top for what felt like most of the 2nd half, however the Hearts keeper never had a single save to make which says it all really. The overall quality and standard of the match was absolutely appalling, from both sides to be fair.

That's us all over this season though isn't it? Give away a daft/cheap goal at one end and struggle to score down the other. I think yesterday, like so many game this season, felt like an opportunity missed because once again there was nothing in the game but we again came away empty handed. Of the 9 league games we've lost this season 5 of them have been by a single goal, which shows the 'fine margins' those at the club love to talk about.

Not going to go over old ground because Robinson seems to slowly be admitting what most of us have been saying for a while, this summer was a bit of disaster and has to be addressed. If he's looking to shuffle things about to at least try and get some pace/creativity in the door during the January window then I'm all for him getting the chance to do that.  See if we bring in any more fucking centre backs, 6 foot plus target men or defensive midfielders though- I'll be starting the 'Robinson out' thread myself. 

I reckon we'll lose our next couple of games and the heat will ramp up from the usual sections, however going by the season so far he'll probably manage to pick up about 4 points from the St Mirren/Killie/Accies games to end the year to see him limp through to the January transfer window. What he can/will do in that will then will define the rest of our season, in terms of either being comfortable with possible cup run or straight up relegation battle. 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Casagolda

[capt_oats]

10 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Not going to go over old ground because Robinson seems to slowly be admitting what most of us have been saying for a while, this summer was a bit of disaster and has to be addressed. If he's looking to shuffle things about to at least try and get some pace/creativity in the door during the January window then I'm all for him getting the chance to do that.  See if we bring in any more fucking centre backs, 6 foot plus target men or defensive midfielders though- I'll be starting the 'Robinson out' thread myself. 

Agree with every bit of the post above but the bit in bold was something that I was thinking about last night.

Essentially it's the question as to whether Robinson's going to be able to bring in the type of players we need. Looking back through his transfer history (Tanner aside) the creative/attacking players are the ones that he seems to have struggled with or have made least of an impact. Goalkeepers, centre halves and midfielders he generally seems to know what he's looking for but aside from Tanner (9 goals in 36 appearances) the forwards he's signed are:

Fisher - 0 goals
Newell - 0 goals
Petravicius - 0 goals
Main -  13 goals in 41 apps
Ciftci - 3 goals in 15 apps
Johnson - 7 goals in 20 apps

Over the summer (and possibly back in January) he was talking about wanting to add a forward with pace but it's something he's struggled to do in practice. Whether that's down to how we were using our budget IDK.

The mystery forward that fell through on deadline day from McCall at Bradford last January turned out to be Shay McCartan who's currently out on loan from them at Lincoln City and has a single goal to his name this season.

Getting Jake Hastie back from his loan and getting him in the squad would be a good start though. Not that we should be hanging our season on him but he's precisely the sort of forward we don't have around the squad at the moment but as everyone on this thread has said (and Robinson himself has conceded) we've been lacking quality in the final third.

Edited December 9, 2018 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

Well...MLS is a bit mental eh? https://www.sounderatheart.com/2018/12/9/18132637/sounders-trade-andy-rose-rights-vancouver-whitecaps-that-so-mls

Quote

Motherwell star Rose heading to MLS?

Motherwell star Andy Rose could be heading to the United States, after it was revealed that Vancouver Whitecaps have paid Seattle Sounders $50,000 for his MLS rights - according to reports in America.

The 28-year-old is out of contract at Fir Park at the end of the season, and the way it works in the USA is that Vancouver needed to pay Seattle for the rights to his signature should they wish to tie him down in the summer.

Rose is a former Sounders player so the club retained his rights.

The Whitecaps have overseen a clearout, getting rid of 14 players so will be eager to add to the squad for new coach Marc Dos Santos.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/transfer-news-live-rangers-celtic-13708645

[Casagolda]

Any money in it for us? Presumably Robinson wouldn’t want to let Rose go for nothing in January.

Wouldn’t be on my list to hunt either mind but he wouldn’t be one I’d be overly upset at losing. He done a decent job for us last season and was a vast improvement on the likes of Conference Clay and sicknote Lucas. The two Aberdeen cup games in particular stand out for me. 

Incidentally if it were up to me, my list would be something like;

• Donnelly - fitness issues, looks suspect when he has played and we have about 6 other centre backs anyway
• Frear - ultimately just not good enough 
• Newell/Gordon/Maclean - need games and never going to get them here
• Bowman Or Sammon - don’t need both

Although you need someone to actually want to take them and that’s where my plan falls down.

[Luke92]

Aye, it's quite clear to see that our attacking options need to be 'reviewed'.

Hopefully the recent noise coming from Robinson suggests that he will be looking to make as many changes as he possibly can in January. The problem is that a lot of the guys that we brought in and (are pretty useless) were signed this summer, that makes moving them on even more difficult.

Totally agree with the list above, on the top of the above I'd like to get shot of the following ASAP:

ATS - unfit and injury prone (not that we wouldn't have known this when we signed him)

Bigi - for all the ability and goodwill fans give him he has contributed very little, he also probably takes up a decent wage.

Obviously we aren't going to be able to get shot of everyone but I think there is a fair bit of fat that can be trimmed here.  If we can move a few of these guys on it hopefully means we can look at other options. As I've said before I am sick of us bringing squad guys in who aren't as good as the boys in the youth team. We need quality players not bench fillers. I'd be looking to bring either Maclean or Hastie back from loan in January who can be new options from the bench.

In terms of wish list I would suggest we need atleast one striker of note. A quality wide player and a creative force. With our limited resources I'd be focusing attention upfront for the most part. Our defence isn't great but I think Robinson is reasonable at drilling the players well. To me, his main flaw appears to be going forward and making us a real creative force. Our league rivals appear to have recruited far better in this regard.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Any money in it for us? Presumably Robinson wouldn’t want to let Rose go for nothing in January.

Wouldn’t be on my list to hunt either mind but he wouldn’t be one I’d be overly upset at losing. He done a decent job for us last season and was a vast improvement on the likes of Conference Clay and sicknote Lucas. The two Aberdeen cup games in particular stand out for me. 

Incidentally if it were up to me, my list would be something like;

• Donnelly - fitness issues, looks suspect when he has played and we have about 6 other centre backs anyway
• Frear - ultimately just not good enough 
• Newell/Gordon/Maclean - need games and never going to get them here
• Bowman Or Sammon - don’t need both

Although you need someone to actually want to take them and that’s where my plan falls down.

He's out of contract in the summer and given his family is North American based I'd have thought it'd be a case of a nominal fee and getting to use his wage. I wouldn't be surprised if Vancouver would be offering terms that would be more attractive than ours so may well be happy to pack his bags.

I don't see Donnelly moving given he's on a 2 year deal and both Robinson and Craigan had worked with him before. That said he's not really settled into the side at all for the reasons you've highlighted, even a loan back south might be in everyone's interests.

Shea Gordon's injured so I'd be surprised if we just cut him loose, it'd be more a case of his deal not being renewed come summer.

FWIW: the way I see it going is;

• Frear out - Hastie back
• ATS out - Livingstone promoted
• Newell out - Scott promoted
• MacLean out (presumably to Falkirk)
• Rose away to Vancouver
• Bowman or Sammon (possibly both) out.

That's 7 players which on the face of it seems a lot but Rose aside it's hard to say we'd actually miss any of them. It's also 7 wages and 3 spots can probably be filled by reserves who have already been around the squad for a while (if not getting first team minutes).

You're right about the the key being teams actually wanting then but we found takers for Theo Robinson, Dean Brill, Louis Laing, Alex Fisher et al around January in the past so you'd hope it wouldn't beyond us. There may not be much by way of return on them but it'd hopefully free up some wages. Of all of the above Sammon would probably be most difficult unless there's a break clause in there as it's clear Hearts don't want him so it's a case of hoping another team would be willing to take him.

Edit to add: We're lacking pace, width and creativity. He's a former player out of favour at his present club...bring him home Robbo. Bring him home.

Spoiler

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by capt_oats

[Desp]

I'd be happy to let quite a few out in January, if we can get takers, if it frees up cash for two or three players of quality.  A left sided defender, a creative midfielder/winger and a striker are necessities.

I wouldn't be fussed about losing;

Aaron Taylor-Sinclair - Has shown nothing and appears to be made of glass.

Elliot Frear - It's clear he's not part of the managers plans, so let him go.

Ryan Bowman - I like the big man - he tries - but he's just a bit short on quality if we want to get away from the bottom of the league.

George Newall - I couldn't for the life of me work out why we gave the lad a new deal for this season.  Then I found the manager is mates with his Dad.  Also made of glass.

Gael Bigirimana - Again, a fan of his, but has he delivered what we all hoped he would?  He won't be short of offers down south and he'll be on a decent wage I'm sure. 

Connor Sammon - Just naw.

Alex Rodriguez-Gorrin - If his name had been Alex Rodgers, the fans would've be nowhere near as patient with him as they have been.  Offered next to nothing.

That's seven players, who've contributed very little to our season.  It's a big ask in January, but if we punt them all and big in three quality players (supplemented by the likes of Livingstone, Hastie & Scott) we'll improve immeasurably.

It's shaping up to be a big window for Stephen Robinson.  If he gets it wrong (after the summer shambles) then major questions will be asked as to whether he's the man to lead us into next season.

[Swello]

40 minutes ago, Desp said:

I'd be happy to let quite a few out in January, if we can get takers, if it frees up cash for two or three players of quality.  A left sided defender, a creative midfielder/winger and a striker are necessities.

I wouldn't be fussed about losing;

Aaron Taylor-Sinclair - Has shown nothing and appears to be made of glass.

Elliot Frear - It's clear he's not part of the managers plans, so let him go.

Ryan Bowman - I like the big man - he tries - but he's just a bit short on quality if we want to get away from the bottom of the league.

George Newall - I couldn't for the life of me work out why we gave the lad a new deal for this season.  Then I found the manager is mates with his Dad.  Also made of glass.

Gael Bigirimana - Again, a fan of his, but has he delivered what we all hoped he would?  He won't be short of offers down south and he'll be on a decent wage I'm sure. 

Connor Sammon - Just naw.

Alex Rodriguez-Gorrin - If his name had been Alex Rodgers, the fans would've be nowhere near as patient with him as they have been.  Offered next to nothing.

That's seven players, who've contributed very little to our season.  It's a big ask in January, but if we punt them all and big in three quality players (supplemented by the likes of Livingstone, Hastie & Scott) we'll improve immeasurably.

It's shaping up to be a big window for Stephen Robinson.  If he gets it wrong (after the summer shambles) then major questions will be asked as to whether he's the man to lead us into next season.

Very good post.  I agree with every player on this - I don't think that losing any one of these would have a real detrimental effect on us assuming that we can replace them effectively. A lot of it would come down to the faith you have in the right level of quality being (a) affordable and (b) available in January.  The main thing I've seen over the years is that it is vanishly rare when replacing lots of players at once that you don't end up picking up at least a few haddies along with the "first pick" players that we manage to get - and that is what makes me most nervous about a big mid-season clear out.

It depresses me on a weekly basis that from a seemingly solid position last season in terms of a first eleven that we even need to discuss major surgery in the january transfer window...

[thisGRAEME]

On 09/12/2018 at 10:26, RandomGuy. said:

I'd lose a lot of respect for Motherwell if they agreed to that. 

I'm sure they'll be reeling at this.

All in all, coaches are the guys that are continually pushing for it, and reserves playing against reserves is not really getting players ready for top flight football. Loaning players out is hugely hit or miss. Clubs get to play kids in competitive football, in a league 3, honestly, pretty fine with it.

On Robinson.. I still wouldn't even consider punting him. Ultimately, in the manager market we're shopping in, we're either looking at someone equally inexperienced, who'll make the same mistakes, or alternativrly; John Hughes et al. 

I don't think we'll go down, so I'd rather Robinson figures out where he's fucked up and fix it, rather than burn a bunch of money to end up in the same situation. He's definitely pushing it, but we're still just about surviving. 

[dezz]

It depresses me on a weekly basis that from a seemingly solid position last season in terms of a first eleven that we even need to discuss major surgery in the january transfer window...

This is what frustrates me most too.

At the start of the season I thought that with Dundee, St Mirren, Accies and Livi in the league that you could have been relatively sure of a season of comfortable mid table safety given the squad we had retained from a successful 17/18. Okay, Livi have done better than anyone could have expected but the point still stands with the other three.

Surely it would have been the perfect opportunity to blood the likes of Livingstone, Turnbull, Scott, Hastie et al supplemented with 2-3 quality additions that genuinely improve the starting 11 while relatively safe in the knowledge that there’s 3-4 poorer teams in the league (based on last seasons form). Come next season they each have a 15-20 apps and the experience to kick us on.

Instead what we’ve done is fill the squad with sub-standard players that not only aren’t any better that what we had last year (arguably worse in some cases), are now inhibiting the progress of some of our more talented young players. To me, we’ve completely wasted this opportunity and it sounds like Robinson realises he made an arse of it too.

Carrying a bloated squad of limited players who give you 5/10 performances every week isn’t the way to go with our model in my opinion.

January will certainly be interesting but it looks like a huge window for Robinson where he needs to prove he has an eye for creative/attacking players.

[RandomGuy.]

16 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I'm sure they'll be reeling at this.

All in all, coaches are the guys that are continually pushing for it, and reserves playing against reserves is not really getting players ready for top flight football. Loaning players out is hugely hit or miss. Clubs get to play kids in competitive football, in a league 3, honestly, pretty fine with it.

In 10 years time when Celtic and Rangers have 50+ 16-21 year olds each, and the rest of the club's are struggling to survive as they don't have any youth to create income, I'll be sure to remind you of how you felt just now.

Project Brave will award them a higher standard once they get colt teams in the league, so all the youngsters will be offered to them first. If you can't see the dangers there, I despair.

Edited December 10, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[capt_oats]

Rose to Vancouver is offishal then...