Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[MJC]

 

This was a exactly a year ago, or a year tomorrow if going by date. Oh for a Louis Moult in this current side.

What a difference a year makes, this was one of my favourite ever days following Motherwell and one of the top moments.

[Busta Nut]

Andrew Scott joins Sparra, Busta and Jay to look back on the defeat to St Johnstone, discuss Stephen Robinson’s future at the club, Motherwell Colts’ success over Sligo Rovers, Colin O’Neill’s comments on the current situation at Fir Park and much more.

https://www.mfc1886.com/mfc-podcast-2018-19-episode-14/
 

[Casagolda]

The thing about us that day at Hampden and the majority of last season was that we had character and a bit of bottle. That was what seen us through so many games, even post Louis Moult. 

This season we seem to have developed something of a glass jaw, a soft centre. At Tynecastle we needlessly chucked away a lead just before half time, we then equalised with 10 mins to go and still couldn’t manage to see it out to extra time. A few days later we were a goal up at Rugby Park with less than 10 mins to go to half time and somehow contrived to go in behind. On Saturday we had a point and our first clean sheet in the league this season going into stoppage time and ended up with nothing.

I mean the lack of quality is nothing new and is to be expected nowadays under Robinson- however this new weak, soft centred Motherwell is far more worrying. Our ability to fight, scrap and grind out a few results was the one thing I thought would keep our heads above water this season. I mean if that’s gone, what else do we have left?

At a certain point you have to wonder if a change is just needed. Things have gone stale, the players as individuals and as a team look a shadow of what they were last season and Robinson just looks like he’s got no idea how to turn things round other than to ‘work even harder’.

I imagine he’ll get these next 2 games and if they go as expected, that will probably be that.

[Desp]

What's the general consensus amongst those on here?

Would you sack Robinson now, with two huge games coming up?  Or has he earned the right to get us out of this mess?

 

 

[BigTamMuller]

I'd 100% say he's earned the right to get us out of the mess he's ultimately put us in through tactical stubbornness and a shocking  summer recruitment - I just don't think he will turn our fortunes around based on what we've seen so far this season. 

It's pretty telling that of the 3 league games I've stumped up £60 for to get in, I've seen us score one goal - Bowman's deflected shot against Livi that looked to be going straight at the keeper - and probably create about 10 chances at the very most. It's hard to make a case for Robinson that it's actually going to improve without a spark coming from somewhere, and I genuinely think it may take a fresh voice and perspective to get that out of the current bunch. Problem with this though is that as mentioned multiple times with our current crop, they just aren't blessed with quality, that even with a Tanner coming back as well, you genuinely wonder just what even a Steve Clarke,  for a slightly extreme example, could get out of them.

Ultimately however, a manager lives and dies by the decisions they make, and if Robinson is relieved of his duties in the near future through results, then he's only himself to look at for his summer dealings, and managing to regress us when we went into a summer with real optimism. One other point to consider is that if he does get a couple of results that keeps him going til January, will he try and address the lack of attacking quality we have in the team? 

[Radford]

I don't see the panic for Motherwell. They are clearly better than the bottom two places and whilst I'm not saying that should be a measure, it does mean they aren't in salvaging the season territory. I think Robinson has earned a chance to get things going.

The style - when it's not working - is maybe a bit of slog and having Bowman, Main and Sammon as three of four striking options is a bit uninspiring but barring a disaster over the next few months, I would think he deserves January to try and remedy that situation.

I don't know an awful lot about the young players, other than good results at that level, but that is maybe one area where I would be looking for a willingness to give them (more of) a chance. Turnbull looked decent on Saturday.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Desp said:

What's the general consensus amongst those on here?

Would you sack Robinson now, with two huge games coming up?  Or has he earned the right to get us out of this mess?

Much like @BigTamMuller in the post above I think he's "earned the right" (so to speak) to get us out the mess but I don't think he necessarily will and increasingly I have my doubts longer term.

Also it depends on who the alternative is. As some of the good brothers on here were discussing on Twitter yesterday John Hughes was genuinely in the frame the last time round which is very much a case of....

Broadly speaking though it feels like a change is in the post. If not now then a bit later in the season and @Casagolda's earlier post explains precisely why. A malaise isn't really something you can readily work yourself out of on the training ground. Generally it needs change somewhere along the line be it in shape, tactics, personnel or ultimately management.

Robinson seems to have painted himself into a corner and it doesn't seem clear that he really knows how to solve the situation. I've no real issue with playing a back 3 if it's working, it worked perfectly well last season but we're in a position where it's a case of 1 win in 9 and our go to is exactly the same even down to chucking Elliot Frear on after 60 mins.

We have almost exactly the same squad at our disposal as last season and truth be told there should be enough there to keep our heads above water and in touch with St. Johnstone. Looking at last season as a whole the only genuinely poor form came at a point at which we were missing half our team through injuries. I posted a couple of league tables over the weekend and they basically illustrated that even post-Moult as unpalatable as it may be to some our form was such that we were a mid-table side.

For all you can talk about our lack of quality Livi are doing exactly what I had imagined we'd be doing this season in terms of style and they're sitting 4th in the league.

Like most of us on here I like Robinson and I don't think anyone can argue that he's been a sound and solid appointment. In hindsight he was the correct appointment at the time. He kept us up, finished comfortably mid-table and reached two cup finals. However this season really needed to be about whether Robinson could adapt his approach, for all I'm talking about how January - May 18 we were a mid-table side we were still only averaging a goal a game in the league. It was being able to see out 1-0s and 0-0s that got us over the line.

Of the 6 games we've lost this season 4 of them have been 1-0 and we've failed to score in 5 of them. 3 of our 8 league goals this season came in the Rangers game and 3 were against Dundee. Suffice to say you don't really need a map to pinpoint where we're struggling. If Main takes that chance on Saturday and/or he scores the penalty to put us 2-0 up at Rugby Park then Robinson probably has a bit more breathing room. But he didn't, so here we are.

While Robinson's been good for a certain type of player...Tait had his best season at the club under Robinson, Charlie Taxi has prospered in his team and while we're counting that cool £1m that was another clean sheet for a Kipré defence at the weekend.

However if you look at the handful of creative players we have it's probably fair to say that Robinson's struggled to find a way to integrate them. Tanner spent much of last season on the bench before his knee fell apart, Bigi pretty much the same minus the injury, Frear is an out and out winger whose appearances have almost exclusively been at wing back. Even Cadden has been stuck at wing back despite Robinson acknowledging a year ago that he's better used up the park.

The problem is that in our current situation it's the creative players we need to be getting more out of. Robinson's a manager with a pretty specific skillset and he's on a learning curve but it's telling that he's been in the job 18 months and win, lose or draw there's been a consistent message that we need to "look after" the ball better.

The culture of football management has changed drastically and you're unlikely to see managers even get 5 years in the job let alone 10 years. For me it's very much a case of horses for courses now. Robinson was the right manager to take over from McGhee. He gutted the squad, made difficult decision and implemented a style of football that for the most part got results to have a relatively successful season. The problem is that circumstances change and we're in a position now where the answers we're looking for now are different to those after shipping 17 goals in 4 games in 16/17.

Edited October 22, 2018 by capt_oats

[nsr]

Bit ahead on this one, but I'm hoping to come up from England for the Aberdeen match on Saturday 24th Nov with my six year old for his first Well game. Any danger of that game being rescheduled as we'll only be around on the Saturday?

[Guest]

That is child cruelty. Take him to the cinema and for something to eat. You will enjoy it more.

[Desp]

52 minutes ago, nsr said:

Bit ahead on this one, but I'm hoping to come up from England for the Aberdeen match on Saturday 24th Nov with my six year old for his first Well game. Any danger of that game being rescheduled as we'll only be around on the Saturday?

Is that not the weekend of the BetFred Cup Final?  Would be moved if Aberdeen make the final.

 

[MJC]

2 hours ago, Desp said:

What's the general consensus amongst those on here?

Would you sack Robinson now, with two huge games coming up?  Or has he earned the right to get us out of this mess?

 

 

I want to give him time but I just can't make a case for him right now.

An awful summer of transfer business followed by dreadful football which is getting us nowhere and he doesn't seem to want to change it or indeed doesn't seem capable of changing it. We had 3,000 there on Saturday and that was a bit of a drop from the Livingston game two weeks earlier. That number is only going to drop further as we head into winter and the performances continue as they are...and let's face it, there is nothing to suggest that they won't.

We are basically in a situation where we are relying on St.Mirren and Dundee being worse than we are in order to keep us in the league and indeed the next two games will tell us alot, but the very best we are going to finish this season is 10th and by the looks of things we'll have scraped 10th should we get it.

I like Stephen Robinson, but for me his time is up.

[MJC]

2 minutes ago, Desp said:

Is that not the weekend of the BetFred Cup Final?  Would be moved if Aberdeen make the final.

 

No, that's the next weekend.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

I don't see the panic for Motherwell. They are clearly better than the bottom two places and whilst I'm not saying that should be a measure, it does mean they aren't in salvaging the season territory. I think Robinson has earned a chance to get things going.

The style - when it's not working - is maybe a bit of slog and having Bowman, Main and Sammon as three of four striking options is a bit uninspiring but barring a disaster over the next few months, I would think he deserves January to try and remedy that situation.

I don't know an awful lot about the young players, other than good results at that level, but that is maybe one area where I would be looking for a willingness to give them (more of) a chance. Turnbull looked decent on Saturday.

Turnbull's an absolute #baller. I've been gushing on about him on here for the past couple of seasons and like most I'm delighted to see him get his chance to start. He made a couple of post-split appearances last season and didn't look out of place. I'm fully up for us giving him a 10 year deal tbqh.

Our approach to the young players is very much the case that we've got one or two earmarked that we'll try and bring through over the course of a season. Cadden was chucked in a couple of seasons ago, Campbell established himself under Robinson. Turnbull it seems is next on the list to be drafted in (Craigan confirmed this in one of the interviews on the club socials the other week).

Of the other players Barry Maguire is a centre half who Steven Maclean tore to shreds in the 5-1 last season, Adam Livingstone plays in an area we could use some freshening up in on the left side but hasn't really seen much of the first team since a couple of sub appearances at the end of the 16/17 season. Realistically though, we're not about to throw a pile of u20s into the side. It'll be one or two coming off the bench and starting now and again, as we've done with Turnbull.

Jake Hastie is on loan at Alloa until January. Hastie's exactly the sort of forward we could be doing with that the moment given the identikit trio of Bowman, Main and Sammon. The problem there is that he's more suited to the 433 Craigan's been using with the reserves the past few weeks. We've already got Ross MacLean papped out on loan to Morton this season because there wasn't really a position for him in Robinson's 352.

Ultimately that's the disconnect that people are pointing to at the moment. Robinson seems weirdly married to a 352 with a more direct approach and while broadly our u20s/reserves mirror the first team Craigan's side have always been a lot more comfortable on the ball because they've got time to play that way at that level they're a far more fluid side than the first team.  By extension they get the best out of players like Turnbull because they play through the midfield, keep the ball on the deck but go direct if they have to. They're a bit more flexible too as I say they started 433 in the win against Sligo the other week but switched to 352 to close the game out.

The comment that many of us are making is that Robinson seems caught in this rinse and repeat cycle: 352, Tait (a right back) playing at left wing back, Cadden (a right midfielder) playing at right wing back, 'work harder', Bowman and Main as a first choice partnership despite Danny Johnson (our joint top scorer) actually looking a more natural finisher than either of those.

He's trying to recreate his side from last season when the ingredients that made that team viable (intensity, physicality etc) aren't working. At the moment we're just a team of eleven guys launching the ball up the park.

Edited October 22, 2018 by capt_oats

[nsr]

1 hour ago, Cossie MFC said:

That is child cruelty. Take him to the cinema and for something to eat. You will enjoy it more.

I thought it would be wise to start him off with low expectations...

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, Desp said:

What's the general consensus amongst those on here?

Would you sack Robinson now, with two huge games coming up?  Or has he earned the right to get us out of this mess?

Following on from Desp's post earlier, let's say hypothetically we were in a position where we were looking for a new manager given we don't have another game until the 31st.

Who'd be likely to be in the frame?

Last time IIRC it was Robinson, Lasley, Hughes and Valakari with Craigan having ruled himself out right at the start.

At that point McGhee had went into meltdown and had a 6 game ban incoming, we were coming off the back of a 5-1 scudding to Dundee, had conceded 17 goals in 4 games and were heading into the closing stages of the league campaign with Craig Samson in goals and a pretty hefty injury list (McManus, Tait etc).

Clearly we're hardly in stellar form just now but a group of players that reached 2 cup finals last season would presumably still have some currency.

Edited October 22, 2018 by capt_oats

[Desp]

As long as they are Motherwell Minded* then that's ok with me.

 

 

* Is this a thing?  If not, let's start it.  Everyone else does it. 

[boozyBJ]

Sorry to say I'd bin him now and get the new guy settled in before the really tough set of fixtures in November/December start.

Cup runs aside, league form this season and last has been abysmal, luckily there have been worse teams in the league who's form has been worse than ours.

I like Robinson, but clear he's lost the dressing room and he's ran out of ideas, not that he appears to have been the most tactical manager to begin.

As to who to replace him with, someone different from usual suspects. We should have went for Valikari or Van der Gaag last time, when names like Ian McCall or Owen Coyle get mentioned it gives me the fear, but at least recently we've sort of shied away from that line of no marks, the return of McGhee aside.

Ultimately I'd like Craigan to get job as I think he'd be great but he might not want it now or in the near future.

[Casagolda]

I’m sure I read an article after he left Raith Rovers where John Hughes claimed we actually offered him the job last time round but he didn’t want to jump ship so soon after joining.

How true that is will obviously be up for debate but I do remember there being a fair amount of chat at the time to that effect. You’d think after everything that went on at Starks Park we’d be giving him a wide berth this time round though.

Of the others mentioned last time round I imagine Craigan’s stance won’t have changed, the Valakari boat has probably now sailed and as much as I love Lasley the thought of him in charge gives me the absolute fear.  

Edited October 22, 2018 by Casagolda

[boozyBJ]

Love Lasley, like most Well fans.

 Lasley is fine as assistant, should be nowhere near main job

[RandomGuy.]

9 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

I’m sure I read an article after he left Raith Rovers where John Hughes claimed we actually offered him the job last time round but he didn’t want to jump ship so soon after joining.

How true that is will obviously be up for debate but I do remember there being a fair amount of chat at the time to that effect. You’d think after everything that went on at Starks Park we’d be giving him a wide berth this time round though.

Of the others mentioned last time round I imagine Craigan’s stance won’t have changed, the Valakari boat has probably now sailed and as much as I love Lasley the thought of him in charge gives me the absolute fear.  

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/motherwell-appoint-stephen-robinson-after-10036151